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Is Dressage Declining?

Dressage
#61

I think what that person was saying is if an amateur is showing at GP on one horse, then if they should be showing open at the same show with the first level horse.

It would be difficult to make everyone happy 100% of the time no matter what they do to the amateur rule.
At least in dressage, you can compete against yourself to improve your scores, get medals, or other achievement awards that aren’t based on who else is in division with you.

I’ve been in jumper classes where Laura Chapot was in my division with a green horse. I’ve been at dressage shows where someone is riding a GP schoolmaster in the same division as me. Is it entirely fair? Probably not, but since it’s not against the rules, that’s the way it is. I don’t think there are enough entries to split the divisions further in most cases.

#62

This is absolutely true. I have personal knowledge of one of these people who has said they don’t want to work with clients on a regular basis, just ride their personal horses and “teach clinics”. I suppose that teaching a clinic is better than nothing.

I agree 100% with your comment about many of these people not wanting to teach or pass on their knowledge. Some of them have sufficient income (either personal or from sponsors) that they don’t need to do anything else, but what about paying it forward or giving back?

#63

Another comment…

Although I don’t think dressage is necessarily on the decline to the level the OP was talking about (where eventually a $300k income will be insufficient), I do see issues with getting access to good training.

My area is great for horses, as are the neighboring states. Even so, it is difficult to find trainers who do anything other than full training (5 days/week). I would never want to do that even though I can afford it. I want to be able to practice on my own which is not possible in that type of system. Either the horse would have no time off, or if I wanted saddle time, I would always have to do it in the context of a riding lesson. It also makes it difficult to pursue outside interests, like a lesson in another discipline (I do dressage and jumping).

Most of the top trainers are so busy that they don’t travel, except for a very short radius from their home barn and only if it’s for multiple lessons. So that means you often need to trailer out, which means blocking a lot of time from your day just for a 45-60 minute lesson. That’s not easy for people that work an 8 to 5 type of job.

1 Like
#64

I have the perspective of a lowly AA who has been watching local dressage shows since the 80s and rode in schooling shows and a few recognized shows in the 90s and early 2000s. Then there was a break when my horse was injured, retired and finally died and my life was also very busy. Got back to watching about a year ago and got a new horse (but not ready for showing) about 6 months ago.

In my area, the number of horses in general have fallen. Fewer backyard horses and low-key barns. Even the big barns are looking for clients or offering blocks of stalls to rent. The lower numbers seem to be across many disciplines.

In dressage I am noticing many more schooling shows. We have two local GMOs that offer schooling show series. Several stables offer their own series, sometimes with HT as well. And there is a local Horseman’s association that offers schooling shows. These shows range from informal, mostly school horse shows, to run-like-recognized shows. Most judges are L grads, though some will offer r judges. The prices are quite reasonable and they offer their own year-end awards. They seem to be doing fairly well (tho they sometimes seem to compete too much with each other and run on the same day) At most shows there are 5-10 First level riders and only a few, if any at second or above.

There are also several recognized shows within easy driving distance from me. When I watched last summer after a long break I found the shows were not as well attended, particularly at training level. What was nice was seeing more third level and up rides that were generally more harmonious and of a higher quality than I had seen years before.

Based upon my observations, it seems that more local AAs are attending schooling shows than recognized shows at the lower levels. I know when I looked at the costs to show recognized compared to what it was when I last showed, I quickly determined that it was not affordable for me and not necessary for the lower levels. I can get show experience and feedback from a judge at a schooling show and have money left over to clinic with some of those judges from the recognized shows.

1 Like
#65

totally agree…that is a dead end for the future. The only upside is that I have noticed a number of excellent Europeans/Brits moving here because they ARE interested in teaching us. Like Leslie Law, Clayton Fredericks, Eric Navet (though he only teaches Karl Cook as far as I know). And there are smaller ones more locally. So it seems we will import the trainers and the horses! Not to disparage them at all either, Leslie Law is probably my favorite instructor I have ridden with of all time, he is a genius with horses and very correct. Plus his style is very American/forward. I don’t see that happening as much in dressage but maybe it will catch on.

if I was a young person trying to be a dressage pro I would go work in Europe for ten years without question before trying to bring it back here. Be a rider at a stallion station or something. It would be enormously valuable. We need good trainers able to bring horses up.

1 Like
#66

Dressage has simply become “horse showing”. The mindset of dressage competition is the same as the saddlebred people I used to work for. When we started hearing terms years ago like “fills the arena” and “expressive gaits” that said it for me. Sorry but I have seen the motivation for showing change from “the judge thinks my horse is progressing correctly and well and rewarded me with a great score” to “I won the class”. A lot of riders never even leave the arena anymore. It’s about drilling to win the class.

It’s has always been that the horse that “out classed” the others in a class took the blue regardless of the discipline and the quality of the training or rider. I see people around me switching to western dressage, working equitation and even mounted shooting because the field is still more level and so, the classes more fun and a lot less expensive.

Yes, I generalize and I know there are those who disagree. JMHO.

7 Likes
#67

Dressage has always been sort of localized in a few places v/s every state ever where, mostly East and West coast and Florida and scattered in between but not much else for the more rural areas. This has always limited the numbers as far as showing etc… Have USDF membership dropped over the years?

The cost of dressage and the idea everyone needs to be riding WB’s, the cost in $$$ is unattainable for a big part of the population especially when it’s just a hobby. That does hold true for other disciplines also, H/J, cutting, etc. have all become equally expensive, including prices for competitive horses.

Dressage in this country also carries a bit of an elitist attitude, I think this turns people away that are trying to get started with it.

If numbers are declining I’m not surprised. I saw it die off completely where we used to live and its non existent where we moved too. However, if you want to get into reining, cutting, roping or barrel racing there is plenty of that.

1 Like
#68

Edre made some great points.

Im very lucky to be in an area and with a group of great friends who do not crank and spank although that does exist in small number in our area. But it’s not the majority. We have amazing clinicians come in who are the top of the game and who care about the training. Some people have moved away from showing and gone more toward clinic riding, as it’s a fun horsey weekend (perhaps the same cost, too), with more education.

I personally have done well at key times against fancy imports. And some friends have very fancy imports. And some want schoolmasters to get medals. We have put in steady, clean tests and have been successful against some of these horses in terms of ribbons, but that’s not the point.

You have to examine why you are in the sport. One friend buys and sells and that’s what she wants to do. She has amazing horses. Another pro friend won nationals with a behavior problem horse she pulled out of a pasture. Beat the very high dollar fancy farm amazing horses with the paid riders etc. But most of my friends are riding for their own improvement on horses they work hard with for years and love on like pets and trail ride and compete. Most of us have very demanding careers and family life and do this because we love it and it’s our escape. The support we have for each other is honest and true and that’s easily verifiable by others on this board who have already posted on this thread.

I agree that perhaps the greatest chance of winning ribbons is with a trained schoolmaster incredible mover. So if winning ribbons is the goal, do that. Btw I’m in a pretty affluent area and people could afford to do that in many cases and don’t. Some do. Good for them.

But we are not all in for that reason, and some of us are very happy riding to see how we improve. In that way, dressage is our best discipline, as we see scores instead of just class rankings. Maybe we have other parts of our lives where we have the need to compete and have that type of stress and truly enjoy showing as a fun fest with friends, not worrying about who beats us. It’s a different mindset.

5 Likes
#69

There will always be people who are more successful in life, finances and dressage. It saddens me when I see the animosity, jealousy and downright hatred on COTH toward those who do well. By definition, everyone cannot have the best horse or win the class. Blaming one’s success or lack of it on others creates a victim mentality that only hurts oneself. If we have chosen a life road where we are self-training rescues and only competing in schooling shows or not at all – we need to own it. It is a wonderful road. No one else is responsible for our unhappiness. Happiness is a decision and it is possible to be happy right now, no matter where we are in dressage or life.

[Ducking and covering]

13 Likes
#70

In conjunction with Edwina’s recent article wherein she half jokes that the FEI should offer real maternity leave, here’s an article that might also help to highlight why fewer top riders are teaching to the extent that maybe they used to.

http://www.worldofshowjumping.com/en/Exclusives/WoSJ-Focus/Tim-Stockdale-The-ranking-list-cannot-end-up-as-our-single-most-important-selection-tool.html

1 Like
#71

The end paragraph is also telling: “I don’t think it is possible for a young rider without a huge sponsor to make it into the top of the sport any more…and when consistently hard work can’t bring you to the top of the sport any more, it is time to realize something needs to change!”

3 Likes
#72

Why is dressage so much about showing? I have no desire to show in dressage, ever. Don’t feel any need to have a judge telling me how well or not I’m doing, would rather have good trainers and clinicians telling me this in a training situation not a show ring. I just want to learn to ride it and well, nothing more.

6 Likes
#73

The definition of ammie versus pro is whether you take money for riding or teaching.

The definition is not how good you are.

I know a lot of low level pros that can’t ride effectively above first level. I know or know of, really, some ammie who are doing decently at GP.

If you want to change the definitions to be a matter of skill and previous level attained, so that an ammie with one GP horse can’t take her green horse in AA training, then you need to also say that all the low level pros get to ride ammie as well.

And honestly how would that work? Ammie classes then become something like Green Rider classes? So if you have points in AA GP you can’t ever ride AA training level again?

Now how strict would you want to be? If you have points in fourth you can ride AA training level? If you have points in first you can’t ride AA training level?

I think first it’s silly sour grapes and impossible to monitor. But also, it’s forgetting the fact that every single horse needs to come up through a training progression. And while your training abilities are no doubt going to be better when you are on your 3 Rd or 4th prospect, you are still going to have to instill all the basics and deal with baby horse bobbles.

Jumping is the same. You could have a 5 foot grand Prix jump off horse, and still be taking a green bean around the two foot sixes.

9 Likes
#74

Right horse at the right time, Snowdenfarm, and Scribbler, right on! There will always be the haves, and the have nots. You can’t get caught up in it. There will always be someone with a nicer horse, better trainer, better saddle, more money, more horses, blah blah blah. Ride for yourself. Be realistic. If you have a 6 mover and score over 60% good for you. Many times people are on 7and 8 movers who aren’t scoring anywhere near a 70 or 80%. So it’s not just about the fancy mover. It’s about the training and how well the rider can present the training. That’s it.

If I’m at Del Mar competing in a class of 20+ ammys with extremely nice horses, then you have to realistically view that a nicer mover with the cleanest test wins. It’s not a conspiracy. If a horse moves better than mine, and beats me, so be it. That same horse could lose its mind at the judges box, jig in the free walk, or the rider could ride bad geometry, and then I win if I have the cleaner test on my lesser moving horse. None of it’s a given, and especially once you get past 1st level.

If you can’t handle criticism, or that someone’s pretty pony might move better than yours, or that someone might just be able to out ride you, they do yourself a favor and don’t show. If it’s not fun, and you are an Ammy, don’t show. It is meant to be fun. But this is competition. Also, the best horse doesn’t always win. It’s a subjective sport.

I ride because I love horses. I ride Dressage because it’s interesting. I clinic because I love to learn. I compete because I like to check up on my work at home, and I’m a competitive person. Type A, the whole 9 yards. This is a tough sport for all of us, showing or not.

9 Likes
#75

(4WdNStraight and I know each other IRL, we are in the same area.)

When I first started riding dressage around here, the community was tiny, and frankly the majority of it was pretty dreadful. Over the past 20 years, the community has grown enormously–a big boom then a bust with the recession, and the sheer numbers haven’t picked up to the same extent since.

However, the quality has improved significantly. The quality of the local trainers, the quality of clinicians that come into town to either ride with or audit, the quality of the horses, has all increased exponentially. And that’s not a bad thing. I’ve been at shows in the past here where I’ve been embarrassed for my community in front of decent judges because of sheer bad riding, obviously lame horses, etc., and I’d be very surprised to see that now.

Finding good, affordable places to board has become increasingly difficult due to exploding development–(and finding quality hay at an affordable price is going the same way.)

As far as showing goes, it seems to go through cycles–in a small dressage community like ours it doesn’t take many people taking a season out for one reason or another, or having a falling out and deciding that their barn isn’t showing at X barn to have a dramatic effect on the success or failure of a particular show.

Personally, (crosses fingers and prays to the soundness gods) I’m looking forward to going out to play this year after a year off. As are a couple of other people in my barn. We won’t have as many places to show as we have in the past, but it looks like we will have good judges to show in front of, and I’m excited to have a couple of really interesting clinic rides lined up, too.

But yes, dressage is hard. You have to be prepared to put the work in. I can think of a lot of people that came into the sport, discovered that it wasn’t as easy as it looks and left. Many of them are out of horses completely and have moved on to other things that they find more fulfilling, some of them are doing other things in the horse world. And that’s all OK, really.

2 Likes
#76

The things I referred to in my post are comments made by others in this thread about changing the amateur rules. There are more than a few people who are complaining about this.

If you want to refer to something I said, then you’re welcome to do it, but don’t attack people because they are quoting what other people referred to.

Interesting that you ignored the things that I said that are in support of leaving things the way they are and looking for the good in the current way things are done in the show ring.

’

1 Like
#77

As to the question about highly accomplished amateurs entering low levels on their new mounts: What I would really like to see is a separate “novice” division – i.e. for teams where neither horse nor rider have ever competed above 2nd level. This would allow beginners on their ordinary (i.e. non-schoolmaster) horses to compete against peers that are more similar to them. The only problem with this is that many shows are so small already that when you divide up the Amateur classes into a regular amateur class and a “novice amateur” class, then the classes get so small that there is no real competition. – Thus bringing us back to the original topic of this thread. Declining numbers. If there aren’t enough participants, then everyone gets thrown into the same class and there is no way to make it fair. The amateurs with upper-level experience binging their 2nd or 3rd horse into training level don’t feel like they belong against pros who are riding 5 hours and brining their 30th training level horse into the ring. But the true beginner on their first dressage horse doesn’t want to compete against either of them. We need more people if we want to have more divisions and still have meaningful competition (i.e. not classes of 3 where everyone gets a ribbon).

2 Likes
#78
#79

You guys do realize that before the 1980’s or whenever the IOC allowed pro-athletes to compete in the Olympics, that the only equestrians who rode were (a) military or (b) very…very…very…wealthy amateurs.

Bill Steinkraus, for one, comes to mind. Married to Helen Ziegler Stdeinkraus, she was one of the founders of ADI (American Dressage Institute). She was the daughter of William Ziegler, one of the founders of Royal Baking Powder. The Steinkraus home was an estate on an island (Great Island) off Connecticut that was recently put on sale for $175 Million.

Ditto for Jane Forbes Clark, patron of Robert Dover also comes to mind. It was considered an honor to have a request from the USET to use your horse as an Olympic mount.

1 Like
#80

@pluvinel I introduced the article in order to address why many aspiring or still at the top riders aren’t teaching as much.

Also you are correct regarding you really always had to be someone with significant support.

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