Is Friesian a draft horse or warmblood?

[Equibrit]

There are also people that say the holocaust didn’t happen.

Chiki,
Can you tell me what distinct qualities the Hanoverian displays in comparison to other warmbloods; those which would distinguish it
as a particular breed?

If you think about it there is no benefit to warmblood registries to close their books and breed for particular qualities.
If you leave it open you are free to respond more readily to market needs; you just go get the improvement cross you need at that time. Having a closed book and breeding for a particular discipline (racing for instance) ties you to that discipline.

[Horsedances]

The history

The Friesian horse goes back a very long time and their roots go back to the wild forest horses. Between the 9th and 12th century they were crossed with arabian horses. And during the 80-year war between Holland and Spain (1568-1648) the Spanish blood came into the Friesian horses.

And the end of the 19th century there were only three stallions left.

Friesians were breed and used for every purpose (see my video I posted earlier of the 125th year anniversary of the Royal Friesian Studbook).

When you listen to the song specially made for this celebration you will hear that he was the workhorse for the farmers and the ride-horse for the kings and nobility. But he was also used for mail-delivery, wars, weddings, funerals, plow-horse, circus-horse etc…

The last 10-20 years the registry is more focussing on the dressage-capabilities of the Friesian horse.

Theo

[Bats79]

Distinctions between the various warmblood breeds have diminished due to breeders aiming for a similar ultimate goal.

This doesn’t mean they have ceased to be breeds just because they have become closer in type. The horses that have been utilised within the breeds as improvement sires (stallions more frequently than mares) have all been selected as having a specific trait that will compliment the breed and move it towards a specific goal. i.e. The Yorkshire Coach horse when a faster roadster was required, a heavy representative of a breed when it is feared that foundation stock might be losing substance.

You will not see the warmblood officials selecting a stock horse type quarter/paint horse as an improvement sire just because there is a big demand for colour.

Breed - noun
Genetics. a relatively homogenous group of animals within a species, developed and maintained by humans.

All which has little to do with the OP’s question. A better question would be

Is the Friesian a harness horse or a riding horse?

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Horsedances;2227866]
But he was also used for mail-delivery, wars, weddings, funerals, plow-horse, circus-horse etc…
Theo[/QUOTE] And here’s mine:

[jilltx]

Oh Thomas 1, now you’re just showing off!

(…and rightfully so, what a spectacular rig and turnout of horses!!)

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=jilltx;2228893]
Oh Thomas 1, now you’re just showing off!

(…and rightfully so, what a spectacular rig and turnout of horses!!)[/QUOTE]
Well… fancy calling a fresian a draft horse grrrrrrrrrrrr

Its a blooming light harness horse not a heavy draft horse!

I hadn’t even realised this bit of the forum existed until someone drew it to my attention!

Blame Matryoshka

[jilltx]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;2228925]
Well… fancy calling a fresian a draft horse grrrrrrrrrrrr

Its a blooming light harness horse not a heavy draft horse!

I hadn’t even realised this bit of the forum existed until someone drew it to my attention!

Blame Matryoshka ;)[/QUOTE]

I know they are. I hadn’t ever considered a fresian a “draft horse” of any kind. It’s my first post here too, but that rig deserves a comment. Again, spectacular!! :yes:

edited to add: Just read the whole painful thread; and I thought the “warmblood/draft” thread was heated! If this keeps up I’m going to need a margarita.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Black Forest;2223167]
Coldblood does not mean “should pull a plough” !

Why not just call them Friesians then everyone knows what it means?[/QUOTE]Cold blood was originally used in Europe in the 1600’s when heavy horses were described as Sang-Froid from the French meaning literally Cold Blood but its actual meaning is “composed presence of mind”.

So the Sang-froid heavy horse became the Cold Blood in the English language and Cold Blood is hence indeed the correct terminology for the type of heavy draft or agricultural horses. And not for light harness horses at all.

[Equibrit]

@Bats79;2228438

Distinctions between the various warmblood breeds have diminished due to breeders aiming for a similar ultimate goal.

This doesn’t mean they have ceased to be breeds just because they have become closer in type. The horses that have been utilised within the breeds as improvement sires (stallions more frequently than mares) have all been selected as having a specific trait that will compliment the breed and move it towards a specific goal. i.e. The Yorkshire Coach horse when a faster roadster was required, a heavy representative of a breed when it is feared that foundation stock might be losing substance.

You will not see the warmblood officials selecting a stock horse type quarter/paint horse as an improvement sire just because there is a big demand for colour.

The classic definition of a “breed” is usually stated as a variation of this statement.

Animals that, through selection and breeding, have come to resemble one another and pass those traits uniformly to their offspring.

I guess they all have 4 legs and a head - but does that qualify to make them a breed. I think not!

[tri]

Oh Thomas, how lovely. No, not in any way would I think of the modern day friesian a plow horse but I guess, historically, some where used in that capacity.

Chickie, you are young and you have admitted on other threads that you are new to all this. You could change your attitude and try and learn. The traditional european warmblood never has been a “breed”. They are a type. They can be interchanged with all the other warmblood registries. You can have an approved Hanoverian that does not have any roots whatsoever in Hanover or the traditional hanover mare lines. It isn’t a matter of using “improvement” blood within a “breed”. It is if they are inspected and meet a certain type, then Viola! They are entered into the Hanoverian books. And a Hanoverian can be entered into the Oldenburg books, and on and on and on and on.

There are however, warmblood breeds. I consider the ID a warmblood breed though I am sure there are some who would rankle at using “warmblood” with the ID.

[chicki]

Chickie, you are young and you have admitted on other threads that you are new to all this. You could change your attitude and try and learn. The traditional european warmblood never has been a “breed”. They are a type. They can be interchanged with all the other warmblood registries. You can have an approved Hanoverian that does not have any roots whatsoever in Hanover or the traditional hanover mare lines. It isn’t a matter of using “improvement” blood within a “breed”. It is if they are inspected and meet a certain type, then Viola! They are entered into the Hanoverian books. And a Hanoverian can be entered into the Oldenburg books, and on and on and on and on.

I am down with learning…but I don’t accept something just because someone else says it’s true. Give me a good reason to beleive something, back it up with facts and rationality, and then I will consider it.

And I am young, but I have a fair amount of experience with friesians…we own them and we breed them. I also know enough about studbooks and registration protocol within the Hanoverian breed to comment on this post. Older doesn’t automatically mean wiser tri.

It is clear that this is not a clear cut issue. There are people here who are insisting that there are no warmblood breeds. There are people insisting there are some, and there are people insisting their are none. There is no universal definition of breed, warmblood, coldblood, draft ect.

We all have our different reasonings…doesn’t mean that because you are older than I am that you have it competely figured out, and everyone else is totally clued out. You say they aren’t a breed, and many very experienced people, and the registry itself, classifies them as that. And until there is a definition of breed that directly implies the studbook must be closed, then I do not agree with the fact that a breed must be a horse belonging to a completely closed studbook.

[tri]

Ok Chickie, if you took a registered TB to the Arabian registry - could you register that TB as an arabian? If you took a Morgan to the American Jockey Club, could you register it with them? No, because they are breeds.

If you took a Tb/QH cross to the QH registery - you COULD register it as an appendix QH, right? Is an appendix QH a “breed”? No. Can it be registered? Yes. Do people still reply, “Appendix QH” when asked what “breed” the horse is? Yes.

With most of the european warmblood registries, the term “warmblood breeds” is more descriptive than actual.

And, no, I don’t think you can have a “breed” when you have an open studbook, especially when you have it open to a LOT of different other true breeds - such as Arabians, Thoroughbreds, French Trotters, Irish Draughts, Shagya among others.

[Beck]

[QUOTE=Horsedances;2227866]
…Friesians were breed and used for every purpose …he was the workhorse for the farmers and the ride-horse for the kings and nobility. But he was also used for mail-delivery, wars, weddings, funerals, plow-horse, circus-horse etc…

The last 10-20 years the registry is more focussing on the dressage-capabilities of the Friesian horse.

Theo[/QUOTE]

This whole ‘issue’ always amuses me. A farm family that lives near me are Friesian - the human variety. Their Opa (grandfather - who is not all that old) loves to talk about his beloved Friesian farm horses he had back in Friesland. He is totally in love with the breed and very proud of them, but he is also completely bemused by all the fuss about them as riding horses - never mind the current prices!

Just makes me smile, is all. Perspective is everything.

[2Horse]

Myself, I don’t consider the Friesian a cold blood.
Do they have it in them? yes. Have they been used as a draft animal? Yes. Does the European Warmblood have Cold blood in them? Yes. Have the EW been used used as draft animals? Yes. So does that make the EW a cold blood because they had been used a draft?

I was told by a very well known and well thought of breeder, of Hanoverian horses in Ky, that there really isn’t a "breed’ of warmblood. But there are certian TYPES of warmblood. Each registry has their own types they strive for. Thus a Trakehner, by blood, can be registered as Hanoverian. Then it is considered Hanoverian. A Hanoverian registered as Oldenburg etc. As long as they fit into their type, went thru expections etc,etc.
This was told to me by a person who is VERY involved with the American Hanoverian Society. So I’m more inclined to believe what she says.

[tri]

Sorry to say, but she doesn’t know what she is talking about.

If a horse is already registered as a Trakehner and presented to the Hanoverians, then the horse isn’t all of a sudden, a Hanoverian. It is a Trakehner approved for Hanoverian breeding. If a horse is registered Hanoverian and taken to Oldenburg, the horse can be a Hanoverian approved for Oldenburg breeding.

The resulting offspring, say for example of the latter example, would then be considered Oldenburg even though it has the Hanoverian registered parent.

So you could have a registered approved Trakehner stallion and a registered approved Belgian WB mare both taken and both approved for breeding with the Oldenburg registry and the foal would be Oldenburg. Or if the stallion and mare were both approved with five other warmblood registries, the foal could be taken to any of the five to be initially registered.

That is why they aren’t breeds!

[matryoshka]

So what is a stud book if they aren’t working to establish a breed? Why differentiate at all then?

I’ve got no investment either way in this topic. I had always thought of Friesians as “light draft” horses–probably what I learned back in 4-H. Draft, to me, means to pull. I realize this is a way too simplistic point of view, so I’m interesting in this topic. I’m willing to learn.

But the warmblood registries are registering something. Tri, are you saying they are just registering a type? And I seem to recall a horse that was registered Hannovarian but not approved for their stud book. He was inspected and improved for the Oldenburg book. Is this an imaginary distinction? He came from Hannovarian blood lines on both sides, but wasn’t eligible to be entered into their stud book? His foals were eligible for Oldenburg registration.

So, from a semantics point of view, the different warmblood types would be considered breeds, since they are registerable, regardless of whether a particular horse qualifies as more than one. Their books are open to the inclusion of certain other breeds upon inspection. Because their books are open doesn’t necessarily exclude them from being considered a breed. My TB mare was approved for the RPSI book, but it doesn’t mean she is no longer a TB. She’s double registered (I think). If she hadn’t met their standards, she’d have been rejected.

Just following the meanings of the words here. Words are defined by those who speak them, and meanings are evolving all the time. Some people are trying to pin the definitions down one way, and others are trying to pin them down another. The word “warmblood” seems to be in flux right now. That’s probably why I and others find this discussion to be so confusing.

[PineTreeFarm]

wikipedia definition
Warmbloods are a group of sport horse breeds and the term simply distinguishes this type of horse from the “cold bloods” (draft horses) and the “hot bloods” (Thoroughbreds and Arabians). Sport horse refers to the intended use of the breed – as a competitive and recreational horse for the major international equestrian disciplines of dressage, show jumping, eventing and combined driving.
Most warmblood breeds are continuing to evolve. In fact, they are not “breeds” in the sense that Thoroughbreds, Arabians, Morgans and Saddlebreds are breeds. Except for the Trakehner, they do not have closed studbooks. Other breeds are often introduced to the gene pool to reap the benefits of hybrid vigor, and to speed and improve the evolutionary process of attaining the “Breeding Goal” of the particular studbook.
The warmbloods are named for the countries and regions from which they were bred and where the studbooks are kept. The original warmbloods were bred to be an all purpose agricultural, riding, carriage, and cavalry horse. In the twentieth century, the European breeders began refining their horses to produce a large framed, correct horse with superior movement and a willing temperament. The result is apparent in the principal warmbloods which include the Irish Sports Horse, Hanoverian, Holsteiner, Trakehner, Oldenburger, Selle Français, the Dutch, Danish, and Swedish Warmbloods. The main difference in the breeding of warmbloods, is the rigorous documentation, selection and testing for breeding stock. There is mandatory performance testing for all stock with the emphasis placed on temperament and rideability. Although the warmbloods are still capable to be all around horses, they excel in dressage and show jumping.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=2Horse;2230604]
Myself, I don’t consider the Friesian a cold blood. .[/QUOTE] Well you got that bit right. Its never been a cold blood either!

Do they have it in them? yes.
Do they? Which cold bloods were used to develop the fresian?

Have they been used as a draft animal? Yes.
You are demonstrating a lack of knowledge! The fresian still is used as a draft horse. Draft just means harness!

Does the European Warmblood have Cold blood in them? Yes.
erm… which European Warmblood??

Have the EW been used used as draft animals? Yes. So does that make the EW a cold blood because they had been used a draft?
You’ve totally lost the plot because demonstrably you don’t know the definitions of Cold blood and Draft.

I was told by a very well known and well thought of breeder, of Hanoverian horses in Ky, that there really isn’t a "breed’ of warmblood. But there are certian TYPES of warmblood. Each registry has their own types they strive for. Thus a Trakehner, by blood, can be registered as Hanoverian. Then it is considered Hanoverian. A Hanoverian registered as Oldenburg etc. As long as they fit into their type, went thru expections etc,etc.
This was told to me by a person who is VERY involved with the American Hanoverian Society. So I’m more inclined to believe what she says.
I would suggest that if you want to learn then you need to talk to someone else as clearly she is absolutely clueless and doesn’t know what she is talking about!

[in_the_zone]

I believe the type they are techincally classified is Baroque. They are neither drafts nor warmbloods.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=in_the_zone;2232987]
I believe the type they are techincally classified is Baroque. They are neither drafts nor warmbloods.[/QUOTE] You need to understand that Boroque doesn’t even figure in classifying to the old definitions of Hotblood, Coldblood, Warmblood