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Is Friesian a draft horse or warmblood?

Sport Horse Breeding
#81

Ok well I am not going to get into what exactly a warmblood is, or if there are breeds. I believe that the hanoverian horse is a breed, albeit with a somewhat open studbook, as every breed has had at some piont in their development. They are still breeds. The name is the breed, and warmblood is their type. There is SO much debate over something that really I don’t think is gonna be solved by argueing back and forth. We all have our opinions and there are PLENTY of threads dedicated to this arguement on this bb.

[B]This whole ‘issue’ always amuses me. A farm family that lives near me are Friesian - the human variety. Their Opa (grandfather - who is not all that old) loves to talk about his beloved Friesian farm horses he had back in Friesland. He is totally in love with the breed and very proud of them, but he is also completely bemused by all the fuss about them as riding horses - never mind the current prices!

Just makes me smile, is all. Perspective is everything.[/B]

Perhaps youd like to refer him to information on the history of the breed he doesn’t beleive is a riding horse. Both the FPS and FHANA cite it as one that was bred primarily for riding, and that is what every site I have read has said. That it was a prized mount as early as 1500’s. The harness part came later.
Here is another interesting site I found that discusses what I am saying here and also , pionts to a painting done in the 1500’s and titled “phryso” , describing the breed of horse favored in the high school and as a war mount. Phryso= friesian.
Lol it also mentioned it as a warmblood…but…err…nevermind.:lol:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://funny-friesland.de/01_geschichte/phryso.php&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dphryso%2Bhengst%26hl%3Den

ps…I was looking through the annual stallion publication that the daughter registry of the FPS puts out once a year. The first four pages contain information regarding breed type, history, grading ect. It clearly and distictly classfies the breed as warmblood. I don’t really wanna go around the bush about this…but that is what THE authority on the breed flatly states.

#82

First off…let me say I know nothing of the Friesian breed…except that I LOFF the movie Ladyhawke…could watch that over and over again just for the Friesian in it…and maybe Rutger Hauer …in that order. :smiley:

There is a Friesian breeder in this area that takes their horses to some of the dressage shows. Some are a heavy type, and some look like saddlebreds (with lots of mane and tail). I truly thought they were a cross of some kind but found out they were purebreds as well. I understand it to be a closed book.

…on the side …the Trakehner has a closed book, no other warmblood breeds are allowed in it…the only exceptions would be Arab or TB blood, and with the high percentage of those breeds would be more considered a hotblood instead of warmblood.

Hanoverian…the AHS has strict breeding regulations and foals MUST HAVE AT LEAST 50% Hanoverian BLOOD to be registered and branded.

#83

[QUOTE=fvw;2236234]

There is a Friesian breeder in this area that takes their horses to some of the dressage shows. Some are a heavy type, and some look like saddlebreds (with lots of mane and tail). I truly thought they were a cross of some kind but found out they were purebreds as well. I understand it to be a closed book…[/QUOTE]

Really? Differences within the same breed that actually make them look like a different “type”? Hmmmmm…now where have I heard that before?
:slight_smile:

#84

Oh heavens no, they might pull something…oh no wait, these are CARRIAGE horses, not to be confused with a CART.

And I drive a crossover vehicle, not to be confused with a soccer mom-mobile :wink:

#85

[QUOTE=concertogrosso;2226106]
They are great for funerals and parades and entertainment, but hardly going to be in the Olympics any time soon. It’s a very spectacular draft horse.

Anna[/QUOTE]

Uhh… I happen to be in the group of people who really don’t care what they are classified as. I started reading this thread b/c I also own a Fries and these conversations are usually amusing, if nothing else. That said, a Friesian has ALREADY long listed in the Olympics. Her name is Bold Contender and they shaved her feathers and pulled her mane and she ‘passed’ as a warmblood. So… if one long listed, then how far behind can it really be? That said, I don’t care if one ever does. Who cares? Does anyone ever pose this question to Haffie owners or happy mule riders? Nope… seems that the thing with Friesians is to try to discredit them at every (or nearly) every turn. Personally, I think it’s a case of ‘Don’t hate me cuz you ain’t me’
I don’t care what you call them, as long as I get to call my boy “Mine, all mine baby!”

#86

I’ve got to say that I’ve NEVER seen so much abject snobbery and obsession with how a breed is categorised and how a breed is developed and what you call it as I have on this forum.

The obsession seems to be on papers and records and words and names rather than on type, ability, purpose, conformation.

Furthermore those who are nit-picking and pedantic about such matters seem to be totally ignorant of the history of breeding horses true to type and also fundamentally don’t even understand what are basic classifications and terminology globally and how such terminology developed and was used over time.

I’d suggest that if some folks weren’t so perochial and insular with regard to their own particular breed that they might better understand how horses developed through evolution, fell into categories, then into groups. It seems to me that the depressing thing about reading many of the postings on this forum is the historical knowledge that will be lost as the next generation closes its mind and believes that the world begins and ends with their experience, in their locality.

You can argue all you like about what a draft horse is and it may well have come to mean something different to some people in their world but its just a horse in harness.

You can argue all you like about the term “warmblood” and it may well be a term that is evolving to mean something else, but understand that its a type as well as a breed.

People have become fascinated with breeding horses whether they’re shetland ponies, friesians, t/b’s or shires. Breeders can have an effect - they can improve the chances of breeding a talented horse or one that is more true to type to a particular breed. But this influence must be kept in proportion and the obsession with what you classify things is absurd.

At the end of the day a Friesian is an old breed renowned for its great presence, its very fast trot, with showy high knee action. Its a fantastically usefully general purpose horse and as such has been a popular horse through centuries - ridden by knights in medieval times, used as a fast and fashionable means of travel as coach and carriage horses, and for such as lighter farm work and they weren’t (normally) used for heavy ploughing traditionally - rather it was for the likes of pasture maintenance and light draft work until the advent of tractors

Also, because its got such good “type”, its been used to influence and improve other breeds such as the orlav trotter and norfolk trotter and through the latter breed the morgan and the hackney.

They’ve been extraordinarily successful in their own right and particularly in fei horse driving trials.

Their showy action makes them spectacular to watch, they can be ridden or driven.

So is it a draft horse -yes traditionally it was and it still commonly is. Its a breed whose type was developed BECAUSE it was a draft or harness horse.

Is it a warmblood - in the sense of that being a type then without doubt it is. (And read and understand the use of the term before anyone jumps on this: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2234352#post2234352)

However at the end of the day a friesian that is true to type is a damned good all purpose horse that is strong with good bone with a flashy good way of going and it not only looks good but has a biddable and kind nature that makes it easy to manage.

Now you can call it what the heck you want but IMO that sounds like the sort of horse that any genuine horseman/woman and who may genuinely interested in breeding good stock would ignore at their peril.

#87

Very well stated and true

This are very true statement(s), and you even didn’t add that Andalusiers of today do have much Friesian blood

Theo

#88

[QUOTE=Horsedances;2236718]
This are very true statement(s), and you even didn’t add that Andalusiers of today do have much Friesian blood
Theo[/QUOTE] That one is news to me. I wasn’t aware that Andalusians had any Friesian influence. Do you know when and how?

#89

Thomas, what you say is true…there is a real fanaticism in regards to the term warmblood ect. Look at all the other posts of this nature on the breeding bb. I can’t even read them past page one…it’s just too painfull.

I believe, like you, that warmblood is a type, and that there are breeds that fit into this catagory. On the other hand, there are alot of people who beleive they are as correct as you do and think totally opposite. Anyways…the whole thing gives me a bit of a headache lol and I have a feeling people will be argueing about this one here and elsewhere for ages.

#90

“Hanoverian…the AHS has strict breeding regulations and foals MUST HAVE AT LEAST 50% Hanoverian BLOOD to be registered and branded.”

This statement says everything about how a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. You DO realize that a Hanoverian is from Hanover as in Germany, don’t you? The AHS is the American Hanoverian Society, not the German one. That 50% RULE is not for the Germans - as in HANOVER, GERMANY. It is for Americans and for the British to keep the studbook from becoming too much Thoroughbred - and to keep us importing horse FROM HANOVER. In HANOVER GERMANY, a HANOVERIAN doesn’t have to have ANY HANOVERIAN BLOOD. So much for it being a breed.

#91

Hey tri - can you point to where the guidelines for the actual Hannoverian (from Germany) acceptable breed combinations exist?

#92

[QUOTE=fvw;2236234]
First off…let me say I know nothing of the Friesian breed…[/QUOTE]

Color me shocked, fvw admitting there’s something she’s not claiming to know everything about:lol:

#93

Okay, oh great and mighty tri who doesn’t believe a breed can be a breed until it has a closed book registry (you do realize most of the registries for American breeds are either still open- Quarter Horses, Paints, Appaloosas- or have only been closed in the last 50 years- Saddlebreds, Standardbreds, Tennessee Walking Horses- right?)

So what do you have to say about the Gelderlander? A Gelderlander must have 87.5% Gelderlander blood, and the outside blood goes back to the erkend studbooks that may be used for breeding Dutch Warmbloods and Dutch Harness Horses.

What do you have to say about the Dutch Harness Horse? A Dutch Harness Horse must be 25% DHH blood, the breed originally came from the Gelderlander, and only 2 studbooks may be used for improvement blood, the Hackney Horse and American Saddlebred (but the Dutch Harness Horse is a distinct type unlike either the hackney Horse or Saddlebred).

#94

Now Renae, don’t start putting words in my mouth. But I do accept your bowing and scraping :slight_smile: Please put beautiful in front of mighty though - something like, oh great, beautiful and mighty tri… That sounds good doesn’t it!

Besides, Edgar Schutte has already posted in a lot of detail on this forum of why the Germans don’t have the 50% rule while countries that have a lot of TB in them do have it. He sits on the Board at the AHS and you can call him, oh great and mighty as well, though I don’t think he would want you to add beautiful. You guys just aren’t paying attention.

In my personal opinion, I don’t think you can have a “breed” where there exists NO REQUIREMENT FOR ANY TYPE OF SPECIFIC BLOOD.

#95

[QUOTE=tr![](;2237603]
“Hanoverian…the AHS has strict breeding regulations and foals MUST HAVE AT LEAST 50% Hanoverian BLOOD to be registered and branded.”

This statement says everything about how a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. You DO realize that a Hanoverian is from Hanover as in Germany, don’t you? The AHS is the American Hanoverian Society, not the German one. That 50% RULE is not for the Germans - as in HANOVER, GERMANY. It is for Americans and for the British to keep the studbook from becoming too much Thoroughbred - and to keep us importing horse FROM HANOVER. In HANOVER GERMANY, a HANOVERIAN doesn’t have to have ANY HANOVERIAN BLOOD. So much for it being a breed.[/QUOTE]

I do deal with both registries!

The reason I stated that is there are some of us out there that are trying to stay true to the breed.
The AHS sometimes will NOT allow some German licensed sires so it’s policies are much stricter than many warmblood registries. There are very few TB mares allowed in the registry and they have to score higher then their warmblood countparts to be accepted. There are also stallions of other registries accepted for their Hanoverian blood. Take Donnerhall for instance…registered Oldenburg but mostly Hano BLOOD.

The AHS issues it’s own papers.
[IMG]http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/downloads/Sept22-2005Rules.pdf)

In Canada the inspections are by German inspectors and the papers are issued directly from Germany.
[IMG]http://www.canadianhanoverians.com/CDN_HVN_mare_insp.htm)

#96

Oh really? Which “hanoverian” “breed” are you trying to stay true to? The high classed coach horse of the 18th century? The carriage horse of post WWI? The hanoverian that is 50% or more TB or arab since after WWII? How about the mostly holsteiner horses that are in the new hanoverian jumper program…that themselves have a significant amount of TB blood in them? Please tell me! Or is it the old style mare foundation that is , gasp! farm and carriage horse mostly? Have you told the inspectors at the AHS inspections that you are trying to breed for the “original” hanoverian? What have they said?

#97

Hey hon, calm down. We DO have a 50% rule here in Germany believe it or not :slight_smile: I’ve got no intention to hijack this thread like you did so I will open a new topic about it.

Here’s my opinion on Frisians: I am with the ones who say neither nor. In Europe Frisians, Andalusians, Lusitanos and a few other - well can we stick to the term ‘breeds’ only because it is easier to write than ‘populations having been bred using selective techniques for a special purpose over a period of a few hundred years’? - whatever they are they are being referred to a lot as being baroque horses. I find that a very appropriate term as it clearly specifies what’s meant and doesn’t imply anything they are in fact not. Much different than some regulars here who claim to breed something but then they claim it’s not in reality what it’s named… winkwink

#98

I found the requirements…

To be entered into the Main-Stud-Book the requirements are:
[LIST=1]

  • Four generations of recognized ancestry must be proved. That means the sire, the sire of the dam, the sire of the dam's sire, as well as the sire of the granddam's dam had either to be entered into the Stallion-Book of the Verband or to belong to a breed which is recognized by the Verband. The dam of the mare must be entered either in the Main-Stud-Book or in the Stud-Book.[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
  • In its final judgement of conformation and movement the mare must at least reach total score of 6,0 points, and in each of the six main criteria it must come up to a minimum of five points at least. [SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/LIST][SIZE=3]To be entered in the Stud-Book the requirements are: [LIST=1]
  • Three generations of recognized ancestry must be proved. The dam must have been either a Main-Stud-Book mare or a Stud-Book-mare or a Pre-Stud-Book I-mare.[SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/LIST]At the Stud-Book inspection the mare must reach a total score of 5,0 points. In each of the six main criteria it must receive a minimum of four points. [/SIZE]
    • #99

    [QUOTE=tri;2238131]
    Oh really? Which “hanoverian” “breed” are you trying to stay true to? The high classed coach horse of the 18th century? The carriage horse of post WWI? The hanoverian that is 50% or more TB or arab since after WWII? How about the mostly holsteiner horses that are in the new hanoverian jumper program…that themselves have a significant amount of TB blood in them? Please tell me! Or is it the old style mare foundation that is , gasp! farm and carriage horse mostly? Have you told the inspectors at the AHS inspections that you are trying to breed for the “original” hanoverian? What have they said?[/QUOTE]

    OOOOOWEEE!! Someone’s had WAAAY too much coffee today.:smiley:

    pinecone = Color me shocked, fvw admitting there’s something she’s not claiming to know everything about

    At least I admit when I’m not familiar with a subject…:cool: …unlike some people.

    Oaksbrae; Kareen and I have already posted the regulations…you just have to read them to see the 50% rule. :rolleyes: This thread IS about literacy!

    #100

    [QUOTE=fvw;2238476]
    … :rolleyes: This thread IS about literacy![/QUOTE]

    Now I am the queen of derailment…but what is the actual title of this thread???

    SOmetimes you just need to stop for a little mental half-halt. :winkgrin:

    two snaps and a head toss

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