Is it wise to judge short stirrup classes by the same standards as upper level classes?

[poltroon]

In this thread,
https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/hunter-jumper/9823873-an-amateur-s-response-to-prudent/page2

Which is a discussion of Jennifer Baas’ thoughtful response to Katie Monahan Prudent’s podcast remarks, we spun off a bit into a discussion of judging in the short stirrup classes and how that impacts entry level riders.

So let’s talk about the lead change. A poor lead change is a huge hit to the score, whether hunters or equitation, considered a major error. In the junior hunters or even 3’ eq, I approve. Riders and horses at that level should be able to manage leads.

At the 2’ level though, we’re talking about riders who don’t have the skill to set up a horse for a flying change or to ask in the air, pretty much by definition. So one can assume, that if a rider does in fact have clean changes (or no changes) at this level, that it was all the horse.

Does it benefit the development of riders to judge the lead change this way for beginner riders? To encourage them to buy horses that will do it alone? To pretend this is the rider doing something right instead of dumb luck or a savvy purchase?

If we are teaching, judging, and rewarding horsemanship, the first thing we want is for the kids to be safe over the jumps. Thus, an appropriate pace and position and balance at the jumps is way more important to us than the quality of the change.

The second thing we want, if those are our priorities, is that the rider has an awareness of leads and the ability to influence them. To that end, probably what we’d want to value most is a simple change through the trot which shows that the rider knew the lead was wrong, had control of the horse to change gait, and had the balance and acuity to get a new canter depart in say two or three trot steps.

So what if we didn’t judge the lead change in these classes? What if we only judged being on the wrong lead or being unbalanced, and didn’t worry about being late behind or a trot change for beginner riders?

At the 2’ level, I want to see riders on saintly older horses that will take care of them. I don’t think it’s an advantage to us, in terms of building horsemanship, to preferentially have them on animals athletic enough to do a clean change on their own.

I think we already all understand that an ideal 2’ hunter is not going to crack its back and make a big round jump, so we’re already used to having standards that are a bit different.

Let the flames begin!

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

No flames here, I totally agree - with the caveat that my experience and sphere of influence is limited to local, unrated shows where you don’t often see horses and ponies that have been purchased because they have auto-changes.

At short (or long) stirrup levels and below, I like to see riders showing that they know what lead they should be on and doing what they need to do to get it. In a hunter round, I think you still have to pin clean flying changes over a simple, but in an eq round, the judge has the discretion to reward the stronger rider who does a quick, clean simple over one who is more of a passenger.

The worst is when the rider has the correct lead and then does a quick clean simple to pick up the same lead again!

[SCI]

I agree with you. I don’t think simple changes at that level should be penalized. But since I’m not a judge, or a trainer, no one really cares about my opinion.

[McGurk]

Ummmmmmmmm…why is a change necessary in SS at all? There’s no change of direction, at least in no SS class I’ve ever seen. The course is once around the fence line in one direction; next class, it’s twice around the fence line in the other direction. No change of direction, no lead change, simple, flying or auto. The pony does need to hold its lead around the course but there is no need for a change. If the horse or pony jumps out of the line and on to the outside lead; then has to change back, I think that can righteously be penalized as a rider steering problem.

[Come_Shine]

A horse on the correct lead is more balanced, and therefore safer, than one on the wrong lead, which is more balanced, and safer, than one cross cantering. Safety - especially at the lower levels - is paramount.
My experience as a judge is that the child who does a simple change is going to win over the child who chases for the flying change and then misses into the line.

As a coach, working on changes was something we did on lessons and my students understtod that the simple change may put them out of the ribbons at a show but it was training for the next class.

[Blinky]

Riders of any level that are jumping should be aware if they are on the correct lead or not, then fix it. How that happens at 2’3" and below shouldn’t matter. Just like they should be learning to not cut corners, get a good distance, post on the correct diagonal, etc. I would structure their classes more on their Eq.

[GoodTimes]

I responded on the other thread but I’ll answer here as well.
Yes and no.
Short Stirrups or 2’ divisions at fall fairs and schooling shows should be an intro to showing. Most of the horses/ponies likely aren’t great movers, many probably don’t have an auto change, they’re usually green horses, riders or both. Most of these shows state in the prize lists that a change through the trot won’t be penalized.

Short stirrup at a B show or an A show is a totally different kind of rider. Most of those kids can ask for a change or can understand why they might have missed one (crooked, too slow, etc.). I spent my SS year learning how to get a fancy small with a dirty stop around and the following year we showed in the Small ponies. At shows of that level I don’t think the SS is for beginner beginners, more of a stepping stone from the schooling show level up to the regular pony divisions. Watch the SS kids at most A shows. They aren’t just sitting there. They understand pace, they see distances, they produce better trips then the people in the 2’6" divisions at C shows.

[findeight]

@McGurk

Ummmmmmmmm…why is a change necessary in SS at all? The course is once around the fence line in one direction; next class, it’s twice around the fence line in the other direction. So the pony does need to hold it’s lead, but there is no need for a change. If the horse or pony jumps out of the line and on to the outside lead; then has to change back, I think that can righteously be penalized, because that seems to be a steering problem.

Around here, Short Stirrup is both outside and diagonal lines and may or may not include oxers (depending on what rules they are following). Lead changes are expected. It can be a pretty tough division, mini rated Hunters out there. There’s no National definition of SS nor is it Nationally rated so it’s impossible to discuss how it should be judged with each region having it’s own definition.

Anyway, if there is a change of direction within the course, IMO the lead change should be judged. Might go with no penalty for simples but the kid with the flying change will score higher. Around here we have a variety of 2’ ish Novice divisions where trotting is not penalized. The only divisions that just go around the fence line are of the Walk Trot Poles or X Rails variety for dead beginners. Even the 2’ has outside and diagonal lines.

[Berry0317]

@McGurk

Ummmmmmmmm…why is a change necessary in SS at all? There’s no change of direction, at least in no SS class I’ve ever seen. The course is once around the fence line in one direction; next class, it’s twice around the fence line in the other direction. No change of direction, no lead change, simple, flying or auto. The pony does need to hold its lead around the course but there is no need for a change. If the horse or pony jumps out of the line and on to the outside lead; then has to change back, I think that can righteously be penalized as a rider steering problem.

I don’t know where you horse show, but my child only does short stirrups on the local circuit in N FL and they have full inside outside inside outside courses for the hunter courses and even have singles and rollback turns in the eq classes.
I do completely agree that flying changes should NOT be a requirement at this level. My child is 8, and shows a 7 year old. Her brain is not old enough to grasp the concept required to properly ask her pony (that is not an auto “robot” pony) to do a full lead change. She knows her leads. She knows when she’s on the wrong lead and when she is supposed to ask for a lead change, she just doesn’t know HOW to ask and I don’t really expect her to at this age. She knows when her pony has switched only up front and how to ask her to slow to catch up behind. I don’t think this should be marked down. She also knows how to drop down to a trot for a few steps and pick the canter back up to get the correct lead. I don’t think this should be marked down. I think that is ALL pretty advanced for an EIGHT year old on a local level pony.

[mmeqcenter]

I usually see “Trotting allowed on corners” for classes under 2’3’’, so allowing a simple change, and I think that’s absolutely perfect. In my hunter days, the trainers I rode with and knew never expected a really solid flying change until you were doing about 3’.
No, a 2’ class should not be judged on exactly the same parameters as a 3’+ class.

[McGurk]

Interesting perspective, F8. In my part of the world, even at the As, SS is once around fenceline, then twice around the fenceline. There can be oxers, but usually not combinations. And in general, it’s for tiny kids who are presumed not to have great steering skills. Age limit for SS is 10 in the rateds, 12 in our local show org.

[keepthelegend]

The real SS division at rated shows does not need to be dumbed down. Lead changes are an integral part of our hunters and even the entry level division should incorporate them - there are schooling and local shows for more beginner divisions where leads, trotting, stride numbers don’t need to be penalized to the same degree. Rated show divisions should have some prestige to them.

[McGurk]

Berry, I’m in Central VA. Very good horse country, lots of showing options. I happen to agree with you, I don’t think a change should be required for SS, I think it’s too much to ask of an 8 - 10 year old. Which is why I think a course without a change of direction is a good idea. I can’t imagine having rollback turns for SS eq; if a child has that kind of control, why aren’t they showing in the pony divisions or the unrated/zone divisions like Children’s Pony, etc.?

[McGurk]

F8, help with this one - it’s been a long time since I’ve dug into the rule book -

@keepthelegend

The real SS division at rated shows does not need to be dumbed down. Lead changes are an integral part of our hunters and even the entry level division should incorporate them - there are schooling and local shows for more beginner divisions where leads, trotting, stride numbers don’t need to be penalized to the same degree. Rated show divisions should have some prestige to them.

Short stirrup isn’t a rated division, correct? Do some zones offer year end short stirrup awards? So when you have a SS division at a rated show, it’s an unrated division - kind of like Schooling Hunter or the Warm Up classes? Or is it like the AA classes, which do have zone awards but aren’t considered rated divisions?

I think arguing that somehow a SS division at a rated show is a big deal with some prestige is a bit silly, and loses some of the point of having a SS division.

[IPEsq]

Stirrup divisions are zone/C rated and/or local. Around here, they follow normal hunter courses, including single jumps, diagonals, and sometimes oxers. Crossrails, in contrast, tend to be just going around the outside. There’s a zone stirrup cup finals as well as a local organization year end awards for SS hunter and eq. Sometimes they have a medal with a few simple tests.

Personally, I would revise the scoring to not penalize a simple change more than a cross canter or counter canter at this level. Typically, the simple change is penalized more because it’s a break of gait. For the education of horse and rider, I’d rather see a SS rider bring the pony back to a trot before the corner, get the change, and continue on over doing nothing, rushing through the cross canter, etc. It shows that the rider is making a decision and also helping to set up the pair to be successful in getting the flying changes in the future. It shows the rider is following a plan. But to move up from there to the next division, the rider is going to need to know how to get flying changes. So, before moving up, ideally, the rider should be able to do the course with flying changes. All else being equal, this rider getting ready to move up should be winning over the ones that can’t get the changes and scored accordingly.

If you don’t ask the SS riders to do changes, how are they going to magically know how to get them done when they move up to the next division?

[keepthelegend]

@McGurk

F8, help with this one - it’s been a long time since I’ve dug into the rule book -

Short stirrup isn’t a rated division, correct? Do some zones offer year end short stirrup awards? So when you have a SS division at a rated show, it’s an unrated division - kind of like Schooling Hunter or the Warm Up classes? Or is it like the AA classes, which do have zone awards but aren’t considered rated divisions?

I think arguing that somehow a SS division at a rated show is a big deal with some prestige is a bit silly, and loses some of the point of having a SS division.

I was mostly saying a division at a rated show should have the basic standards of a hunter class. I do think there should be some “prestige” to showing in the big leagues even in the lowest division.

[poltroon]

@IPEsq

If you don’t ask the SS riders to do changes, how are they going to magically know how to get them done when they move up to the next division?

They might be riding a different horse for the next division.

When I was a wee one showing in the 2’ division, I rode a horse that was physically incapable of a clean flying change with any rider.

Also I note that over a larger fence, it is easier to get changes in the air if you have a horse who is sticky with them, which is how I rode quite a lot of limited horses successfully in the 3’ classes back in the day.

[chunky_munky]

There is no rating with USHJA/USEF for short stirrup division. The abilities of the riders in this division vary greatly depending what part of the country you are in. Be sure that as a judge you ask for the specifications for the division. Some say trotting is permissible, most say nothing at all. If there are no specs, as a judge you can make your own determination of what you expect them to do. If you want them to be able to do simple changes with no penalty, have it announced, notify the starter to tell the trainers/riders at the gate *****HAVE IT WRITTEN IN BIG LETTERS ON THE COURSE CHART.

[poltroon]

@chunky munky

There is no rating with USHJA/USEF for short stirrup division. The abilities of the riders in this division vary greatly depending what part of the country you are in. Be sure that as a judge you ask for the specifications for the division. Some say trotting is permissible, most say nothing at all. If there are no specs, as a judge you can make your own determination of what you expect them to do. If you want them to be able to do simple changes with no penalty, have it announced, notify the starter to tell the trainers/riders at the gate *****HAVE IT WRITTEN IN BIG LETTERS ON THE COURSE CHART.

I love it. Clarity for the win!

[Peggy]

I ran a local show series where short stirrup was allowed simple changes (but expected to canter the fences), and cross rails could do any amount of trotting. It was specified in the prize list. Judges got a prize list with some of the critical things highlighted as well as a sheet on the top of their clipboard, written in large typeface, of key items, including these rules. I also made a point of going over those two things with the judge for that ring. All of this came about because of a few judges who didn’t read the tiny print in the prize list and penalized trot changes/trotting.

Can’t remember if we wrote it on the courses, but that’s a great idea!