Is it wise to judge short stirrup classes by the same standards as upper level classes?

[McGurk]

Flame suit firmly on, but I guess the question I have is, if you’re a parent or coach, and the skill requirement for SS is a traditional hunter course with changes of direction and lead changes, why the heck aren’t you showing in the Local pony classes? The C rated, zone awards, ones? The height can’t be that big a deal if you’re insisting that these tiny kids either be aware of and ask for a change or have a pony with auto changes, and be able to pilot around a regular course.

And if your answer is that somehow the Local Pony classes are too difficult or too much competition, then do you need be at A show, regardless of division? Or is the issue that SS doesn’t need make the step, and the Local Ponies do?

To clarify my perspective, I am of pre-mileage rule vintage, when there were still B and C rated shows. And that I live in an area with a robust local circuit that’s the equivalent of the old B and C shows, and several decent schooling show circuits. So I just don’t understand why someone would pay the $$$ and deal with a multi-day show and attendant hoopla just to show SS.

Now, from the coach’s point of view, I get that it’s easier to have everyone in the barn going to the same show, but I don’t understand why, as a client, you’d continue to pay for it if you only had one kid showing, and that kid was showing SS.

And in terms of making the sport accessible and entry into showing reasonable, let’s really think about what we’re saying - in order to show in an unrated division, as a child under ten, you need to be able to manage pace, understand the geometry of the ring and course, and changes of direction w/lead changes with decent equitation? Or have a $25K pony that makes it look like you do? Pretty tall order.

[IPEsq]

I think some of the $$ piece to the above is indeed having a pony that can make the step. You might have a nice pony that’s on the smaller side of their height who does better doing the appropriate add on a 12’ stride.

In my area, the long/rusty stirrup divisions are as big if not bigger than SS. This is where beginner adults and older kids can start showing, as Xrails are age restricted. Perhaps some start showing too early, in this showing is everything culture. Perhaps some can get leads are home but, as beginners, they make mistakes at the shows at first. I don’t think it’s a bad thing to reward those farther along by placing them higher. The beginner on the auto swap horse won’t necessarily pin high just because their horse swaps, if they can’t go straight down the lines or get decent distances. Whether it’s changes or a horse who can auto pilot the distances, there’s always a chance that one horse will make things easier/be more valuable/be more likely to win. You find that going up the levels with the ones with the naturally better jump and movement etc. The subjective nature don the sport is not always fair. Might not be such a bad thing to teach some how to ride and also how to be good sports at losing.

[findeight]

But As are the only alternative in many other areas where very popular mega circuits have crushed the locals.

But even at most of those As there are various non rated Novice/Beginner 2’ classes where trotting is not a deduction. If you want to spend 1k a week, pick those classes instead of something, whatever it might be called, that has changes of direction at the canter. Don’t go in knowing lead changes are expected then complain the judging standards should be changed.

Im admittedly a bit of a hard a*s about being properly prepared for division requirements. Rider will screw It up anyway with show nerves but at least they theoretically know how at home and the horse can physically do it. Sending them in when you know it won’t happen is a waste of trainers time and clients money and blaming the judging to save face is a cop out from a coach you are paying to prepare you to show.

[RugBug]

@McGurk

Now, from the coach’s point of view, I get that it’s easier to have everyone in the barn going to the same show, but I don’t understand why, as a client, you’d continue to pay for it if you only had one kid showing, and that kid was showing SS.

So we expect non-horsey parents of young ones to understand that there are (or used to be) smaller, less expensive shows? That they all have researched what is out there, what the qualifications for placing in classes are and what would best serve them and their wallets?

And in terms of making the sport accessible and entry into showing reasonable, let’s really think about what we’re saying - in order to show in an unrated division, as a child under ten, you need to be able to manage pace, understand the geometry of the ring and course, and changes of direction w/lead changes with decent equitation? [snip]
Pretty tall order.

I find this argument a little silly. Lots of kids are doing it in some places of the country, so clearly it can be done. You’ve got to start somewhere and often skill is developed based on expectation.

[findeight]

I do think some kids are simply too young to learn a course and manage pace. Used to be around 7-8 before they got serious about such things. These days it’s 6 and they don’t even know left from right. In which case they wait, practice and show in age/ability appropriate classes as opposed to wanting the standards waived due to age and ability. Same for Adults rider clients.

SS definition and requirements are all over the place with no national standard but the trainer should know and place the client in the appropriate division instead of encouraging clients to whine about losing to better prepared riders.

My trainers were honest about why I didn’t win…that’s why I paid them and knew where to aim to improve.

[McGurk]

RugBug,

[snip] And in terms of making the sport accessible and entry into showing reasonable, let’s really think about what we’re saying - in order to show in an unrated division, as a child under ten, you need to be able to manage pace, understand the geometry of the ring and course, and changes of direction w/lead changes with decent equitation?
Pretty tall order. [/snip]

I find this argument a little silly. Lots of kids are doing it in some places of the country, so clearly it can be done. You’ve got to start somewhere and often skill is developed based on expectation.

I guess my point is that there’s a conflict about what SS should actually be. If the expectation is that the rider is already proficient at those things, which I acknowledge lots of kids are, even thought it’s a pretty high bar, they should be showing in the Locals or the rated divisions, if the pony can make the step. I’m questioning the need for yet another division that requires that standard of riding.

If the expectation is that SS is an entry level division, an introduction to showing, should it be simpler courses with adding strides not penalized? And if so, should the division be offered at As?

I’ve got no dog in this fight; no kid showing, no students showing at this level, I’m just curious as to what the thinking is.

[Peggy]

Is it a bad thing that short stirrup varies by region, or even county? It’s not a rated division, and flexibility allows show managers to write specs for the SS/LS/RS classes that allows them to fit in with local demographics and needs and thereby fill.

For example, one advantage of stirrup divisions over ponies is that both horses and ponies can do the classes, thereby making it likelier that they’ll fill. The lines in those classes should have enough strides in them that doing the add is not a problem. In my years of doing the local shows, the number of ponies waxed and waned and we finally just removed the division, figuring that the kids could show in an experience-appropriate division. Admittedly, dealing with honies and the hony moms was another reason we gave up on the division.

FWIW, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Local Pony division at a show out here. The USEF shows have rated ponies and Children’s Pony Hunters. The county-only shows group all pony heights together, sometimes adjusting for pony height and sometimes not.

It shouldn’t be confusing as long as there are clear rules (prize list, online, or whatever) and people actually read them. Reading them is good practice for the future and is something that the trainer of students who are starting out should be helping their clients with.

For an example of county show rules, here is the SD group’s spec sheet: http://www.gsdhja.org/files/2017%20p…0divisions.pdf. Note that simple changes are not penalized in the cross rails division and that SS/etc has to be set as a course (as opposed to twice around) to count for points.

[GoodTimes]

@Peggy

Is it a bad thing that short stirrup varies by region, or even county? It’s not a rated division, and flexibility allows show managers to write specs for the SS/LS/RS classes that allows them to fit in with local demographics and needs and thereby fill.

It shouldn’t be confusing as long as there are clear rules (prize list, online, or whatever) and people actually read them. Reading them is good practice for the future and is something that the trainer of students who are starting out should be helping their clients with.

.

This. Short Stirrup isn’t rated so everyone needs to stop getting hung up on the name. Enter yourself, your kids, your students and your horses in divisions appropriate for their skill level. It doesn’t matter what the name of the division is.

In our area SS on the A and B circuit are competitive divisions with real courses. The kids often move straight from SS to the section ponies without a problem. The C circuits offer cross rails and 2’ divisions. I don’t know anyone around here advocating to dumb down the successful SS division.
I get that not all areas have B and C circuits anymore. If that’s the case then tell the kid they’ll have to wait to show until they can get around appropriately.