Dressage is good for all horses…not all horses are good for horse-showing…
Sorry, couldn’t help myself.
[QUOTE=atlatl;8524549]
Well, at the risk of muddling the conversation with facts, here’s what Centerline Scores says about her:
Lynn Palm (8348)
4th Level (68.78%)
USDF Bronze Medal awarded on Sep 13, 2013 This rider has 2 out of 4 required qualifying rides for this USDF Silver Medal. This rider has 0 out of 4 required qualifying rides for this USDF Gold Medal.
I’m thinking she knows a boatload more than some. And this is not considering any of her AQHA accomplishments.
http://dressagetoday.com/article/eqpalm2820
Anyway, the point is that systematic training and gymnasticizing of a horse is beneficial to any horse, say as opposed to getting on and with no warmup yahooing about. However, not every horse is going to be able to progress to the highest levels of dressage and one must take into account the horse’s conformation.[/QUOTE]
Scores do not mean knowledge. She obviously does not know the meaning of the word. But I would not expect her to. She’s a QH trainer.
[QUOTE=Velvet;8525504]
Scores do not mean knowledge. She obviously does not know the meaning of the word. But I would not expect her to. She’s a QH trainer.[/QUOTE]
Wow. That’s inclusive*.
*QH pun absolutely intended.
Hey, she started out in another sport and she’s crossed over (with AQHAs) to dressage and even brought it into their shows. But she doesn’t have the history with it and that quote shows she doesn’t know what it really means. I see her as 100% AQHA. They have their own version of riding styles.
Have some class people. Stay on topic or leave.
And you’re the police out here? :lol: Oh man, some people just do NOT understand how these boards work. :no:
Maybe you should lurk first, post later. :lol:
I do not believe dressage (as I define it) is good for all horses. Even at the lowest of level, dressage training requires a horse to work from behind, over the back, to connect to the bit (bow and string). If you have a horse with conformation issues like straight hocks, low set ewe neck, and things like that, the chances of achieving this are low. How is a horse going to build correct musculature if he is not working with impulsion from behind and working straight? Asking an older and/or crooked and/or poorly conformed horse to adapt to dressage RISKS soundness rather than ensuring it imo.I’m not even convinced musculature can dramatically change once the horse gets a certain age. (Yeah, Yeah, I know you all know of horses that have done it; the exceptions).
Starting dressage training with a mature (and especially older; i.e. teenage) horse that has never been worked according to the training scale will be a uphill journey, especially if the trainer/rider is not proficient.
PostNote: The constantly used comment “dressage means training” is true if you take it at the literal definition. Dressage as is discussed on this forum and most others is a Discipline. Are horses being trained for Endurance doing dressage? Are saddlebred saddleseat horses doing dressage? Are western pleasure horses doing dressage? Not the kind of dressage most of us here identify with.
I keep seeing low set neck referenced. Does that imply a naturally low carriage? Because if so, my horse does not have that issue. Like I said, my horse is a morgan/QH, but I’ve always seen more of the morgan in him. He even naturally stands with his feet set wide like they are known for. He does get ALL of his power from the front, but that’s just a training issue, not a conformation one, right?
[QUOTE=Velvet;8525504]
Scores do not mean knowledge. She obviously does not know the meaning of the word. But I would not expect her to. She’s a QH trainer.[/QUOTE]
I would give my eye teeth to ride like her. Maybe not the highest ranking dressage rider in the world, but she understands the importance of play, and of the horse WANTING to revel in movement and perform.
I’ve seen so many shut down, cranked in beautifully conformed WBs go with both pros and ammies, I think some forget that the most beautiful dressage when the horse is enjoying it.
[QUOTE=Mnsn2Mzrt;8525760]
He does get ALL of his power from the front, but that’s just a training issue, not a conformation one, right?[/QUOTE]
It’s an impossibility unless he’s missing his rear legs.
True, Pipkin. I agree that happy horses are what dressage is supposed to create. Even when it’s difficult, they come out of the movement with pride and throughout the test should be showing a desire to do the work. My comments about Lynn was based on the quote, which I disagree with. “Dressage” is defined as training the horse. Which should be improving the horse. All horses can do that. Her knowledge or understanding of the term was my issue. She doesn’t understand it if that’s how she sees it. Meaning that she doesn’t see it apply to all horses. And coming from the QH world, she wasn’t steeped in where dressage came from and what it’s really all about–once again, meaning the original term. At least, that’s my assumption based on where her riding roots are based, and on her statement.
BTW, anyone hiding a garage gnome…or Aunt Esther’s purse?
I like what you say here. I still think any horse would benefit from training/parts of first level.
“Dressage means training” seems to be a good way of explaining what dressage is to people that have just begun or have interest in dressage and may think that it’s something only a few horses are capable of. I guess I believe in helping people by opening the door to their horse.
There’s a movement these days towards an American warmblood being a cross between a Fresian (sp) and a saddlebred to create a horse that can excel at the discipline of dressage. I have read that even countries in Europe are using saddlebreds to improve their warm bloods and that’s been going on for years.
[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8525817]
There’s a movement these days towards an American warmblood being a cross between a Fresian (sp) and a saddlebred to create a horse that can excel at the discipline of dressage. I have read that even countries in Europe are using saddlebreds to improve their warm bloods and that’s been going on for years.[/QUOTE]
A movement WHERE? There are a very small handful of people doing this cross, hardly a movement. ONE breeder who has created a designer registry does not make a movement.
I ride a Friesian cross (not an ASB cross), and am pretty in tune with the FX community. I think you have your “facts” a little crossed.
There were some ASBs brought in to Europe specifically for the Harness Horse - but it is not a huge movement, and there are only a few ASBs involved. One thing ASB did introduce is some fun colors.
All horses will benefit from basic training. But if you want to progress toward 2nd/3rd/4th on up, where collection is required - not all horses will handle this kind of work well. And it is really more then conformation - a horse’s mind and desire (and the riders ability) become SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT as we move up the levels.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8525896]
A movement WHERE? There are a very small handful of people doing this cross, hardly a movement. ONE breeder who has created a designer registry does not make a movement.
I ride a Friesian cross (not an ASB cross), and am pretty in tune with the FX community. I think you have your “facts” a little crossed.
There were some ASBs brought in to Europe specifically for the Harness Horse - but it is not a huge movement, and there are only a few ASBs involved. One thing ASB did introduce is some fun colors.
All horses will benefit from basic training. But if you want to progress toward 2nd/3rd/4th on up, where collection is required - not all horses will handle this kind of work well. And it is really more then conformation - a horse’s mind and desire (and the riders ability) become SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT as we move up the levels.[/QUOTE]
I wish that they would just stick with our American Saddlebreds, rather than feeling that they need to cross them with anything. The right horses are out there- you just have to know where to look!
There rumors that ASBs were crossed into the Swedish Warm Bloods, but I have no idea whether it is true. I know that they were crossed into the Morgans. Unnecessary, but there you have it.
To answer the OP’s questions succinctly; dressage is a benefit to EVERY horse, but I have found that horses with really high croups (not found in ASBs, generally) have difficulty because they simply have one hell of a time moving all back to the hind end. Riding them is like pushing a wheelbarrow in a ditch. They can absolutely improve, but the challenges remain.
Conformation certainly is one piece that informs the ‘potential’ to be ‘successful’ in dressage, but there are many other pieces and variables as many have mentioned, not the least of which is what’s between the horses ears.
However, I think one of the other major pieces of this puzzle that is overlooked is a horses’ innate bio-mechanics. Just like there are some very athletic ‘looking’ people in this world that can’t walk and chew gum at the same time, there are also some very beautifully conformed horses that are very mediocre at best when they move.
How a horse coordinates itself in its gaits is really the functional part of conformation (which is static), and horses are perfectly capable of out-performing conformation flaws, just as they are at under-performing. It ‘may’ cause some stress or strain as the horse moves up the levels, but…it may not. There are certainly many successful Grand Prix horses with less than desirable conformation
(eta, to a degree, I’m not talking about really grossly awful conformation).
[QUOTE=Mnsn2Mzrt;8525760]
I keep seeing low set neck referenced. Does that imply a naturally low carriage? Because if so, my horse does not have that issue. Like I said, my horse is a morgan/QH, but I’ve always seen more of the morgan in him. He even naturally stands with his feet set wide like they are known for. He does get ALL of his power from the front, but that’s just a training issue, not a conformation one, right?[/QUOTE]
You want a horse whose neck comes up and out of its withers, not out of its chest, ideally.
Power from the front can be a conformational thing, or it can be a training thing, or a combination of the two. For example, I’ve got a TB with a big shoulder and long neck, and she’d prefer to drag herself around by her front end, because it’s easier for her. Dressage work has taught her how to push and carry from behind, and while we’ll never be dressage stars, it’s been excellent for her to learn to carry herself correctly and build up those muscles, and that also helps us in our main jumping disciplines.
There are plenty of horses–even those with perfect conformation–who are never going to be at the top of their discipline for one reason or another. I think most horses, barring serious conformational or medical issues, should be able to do low-level work in most disciplines.
I had a gelding with a thick throat latch, extremely high set neck, and was very downhill. His hocks trailed behind, his was over at the knee, This horse was a conformation nightmare. This horse was as close as I’ve ever seen to not being able to do dressage. His head never went down, per say, but he could lift his back to an extent and “do dressage”. I eventually sold him to a trail home because of these issues, but he was able to compete. He scored in the 50s for eventing dressage, presumably because he wasn’t “on the bridle”.
[QUOTE=Mnsn2Mzrt;8525655]
Have some class people. Stay on topic or leave.[/QUOTE]
Mnsn2Mzrt, you may want to explore the block function on the forums. It is a way to hide the posts of those you find less than helpful.
Regarding your horse tripping, I had a lovely AQHA horse that I showed in the All-around. He also had a tendency to trip when he was not focused on his work. I found that doing dressage with him was very helpful in that I learned to ride every.single.stride and that helped keep him focused. He never made it beyond training level, but after doing dressage with him for a year or so, I took him to an AQHA show and cleaned up as he was stronger and was moving better than ever.
My first start was riding at “versatility school” with Lynn Palm, who’s background is in fact dressage-based although she does not typically show at dressage shows. Lynn had a good video series out called Dressage Principles for Western Riders, or something like that.
Others have already explained the low-set neck conformation so I’ll just add that my QH was bred to go with a level topline, and was built that way. The preferred dressage topline is uphill and that is reflected in the purpose-bred dressage horse.
Good luck!
[QUOTE=cb06;8525938]
Conformation certainly is one piece that informs the ‘potential’ to be ‘successful’ in dressage, but there are many other pieces and variables as many have mentioned, not the least of which is what’s between the horses ears.
However, I think one of the other major pieces of this puzzle that is overlooked is a horses’ innate bio-mechanics. Just like there are some very athletic ‘looking’ people in this world that can’t walk and chew gum at the same time, there are also some very beautifully conformed horses that are very mediocre at best when they move.
How a horse coordinates itself in its gaits is really the functional part of conformation (which is static), and horses are perfectly capable of out-performing conformation flaws, just as they are at under-performing. It ‘may’ cause some stress or strain as the horse moves up the levels, but…it may not. There are certainly many successful Grand Prix horses with less than desirable conformation
(eta, to a degree, I’m not talking about really grossly awful conformation).[/QUOTE]
VERY good point. My gelding doesn’t have ideal conformation (but certainly has athletic conformation), but his innate sense of balance and coordination makes a massive difference. His desire to work as hard as possible is another difference maker.
I created this image as a discussion point in another group, top is current and bottom is 6 years earlier. He really only has about a year of dressage conditioning continuously going on due to my own problems keeping us from working and prior to that time off as we fixed some dramatically devolving hoof problems (actually Feb 14 last year was when we started back into conditioning), but you can see the drastic changes in his posture. He was 8 in the first pic, 14 now. He previously raced and evented, though the eventing was more about jumping and cross country, galloping, etc., than correct dressage for the most part.
His hind legs are straighter than ideal, though not terrible, but you can see that with strength and improvement in his development even his hocks appear to have more angle. Also notable that you can see which are not things you hear about improving are how his neck ties in relative to his chest, how uphill he is, and that his pasterns look stronger. The pasterns I credit to the hoof work and finally fixing how underrun his heels had been since the track, and just improving overall hoof balance. With pixilation and image quality you can’t tell that his topline across SI area is smoother now than it was then, and the heavy winter coat hides just how much more muscle he has.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1586/24594480869_423f631f98_o.jpg
