Menu

Stay in Touch
Sign up for ENews
Subscribe Now

Unlimited access >

Menu

Is there a conformation that CAN'T do dressage?

Dressage
#61

[QUOTE=netg;8526057]
VERY good point. My gelding doesn’t have ideal conformation (but certainly has athletic conformation), but his innate sense of balance and coordination makes a massive difference. His desire to work as hard as possible is another difference maker.

I created this image as a discussion point in another group, top is current and bottom is 6 years earlier. He really only has about a year of dressage conditioning continuously going on due to my own problems keeping us from working and prior to that time off as we fixed some dramatically devolving hoof problems (actually Feb 14 last year was when we started back into conditioning), but you can see the drastic changes in his posture. He was 8 in the first pic, 14 now. He previously raced and evented, though the eventing was more about jumping and cross country, galloping, etc., than correct dressage for the most part.

His hind legs are straighter than ideal, though not terrible, but you can see that with strength and improvement in his development even his hocks appear to have more angle. Also notable that you can see which are not things you hear about improving are how his neck ties in relative to his chest, how uphill he is, and that his pasterns look stronger. The pasterns I credit to the hoof work and finally fixing how underrun his heels had been since the track, and just improving overall hoof balance. With pixilation and image quality you can’t tell that his topline across SI area is smoother now than it was then, and the heavy winter coat hides just how much more muscle he has.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1586/24594480869_423f631f98_o.jpg[/QUOTE]

He’s beautiful! I hope to get that much progress out of my training.

#62

Again, this connects to the point I made about dressage as a basic training method, and dressage as a discipline. From what I’ve seen, basic dressage training done in a systematic, slow and careful way can make huge improvements in any horse that is fit for riding. Stretching the neck to the bit and engaging the hocks and hind-end will help a ewe-neck horse immensely, and can even undo some of the hind-end damage in a teenage horse that comes from moving incorrectly for a lifetime.

That said, what you would get from that would not be a highly competitive dressage horse that would win you ribbons. You might never get really high levels of collection or suspension. But you would get a better horse.

#63

[QUOTE=Mnsn2Mzrt;8525760]
I keep seeing low set neck referenced. Does that imply a naturally low carriage? Because if so, my horse does not have that issue. Like I said, my horse is a morgan/QH, but I’ve always seen more of the morgan in him. He even naturally stands with his feet set wide like they are known for. He does get ALL of his power from the front, but that’s just a training issue, not a conformation one, right?[/QUOTE]

There are two aspects to neck set.

One is skeletal: how far up the shoulder the neck bone emerges from the body (the actual bone, as opposed to the crest of the neck, or the throat). This takes a bit of prodding to find, and also has a relationship to the angle of the shoulder blade. I think that horses with a sloped-back shoulder blade have more chance of the neck bone emerging higher up than those with a steep shoulder blade.

The other is posture: where the horse habitually carries his head, which is what we tend to see at a first glance.

A horse with a very low-set neck often does carry his head high. This is seen most obviously in horses with ewe necks.

Without seeing good conformation photos, it’s impossible to tell what your horse is built like. Morgans tend to have laid-back shoulders and higher skeletal neck sets, while QH can have steeper shoulders and lower skeletal neck sets (but not always), so it depends how the mix comes out in your case.

That said, a natural high neck set in a Morgan (or an Arabian) can contribute to the horse rolling behind the bit, or getting a swan neck. So while you want to end your dressage training with a horse that can flex softly at the poll with a raised neck, you might want to start your dressage training ensuring that he can reach to the bit and stretch forward and out. Definitely , you do not want to start him on the longe line with tight side reins to force a “head set” or frame.

If you are interested in functional conformation questions, this blog is very helpful. It has been inactive for a while but is still up and accessible:

http://hoovesblog.com/

you might also be interested in Deb Bennett’s book on functional conformation.

These two resources explain in detail the correspondence between body type, performance and soundness.

#64

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8526319]
Again, this connects to the point I made about dressage as a basic training method, and dressage as a discipline. From what I’ve seen, basic dressage training done in a systematic, slow and careful way can make huge improvements in any horse that is fit for riding. Stretching the neck to the bit and engaging the hocks and hind-end will help a ewe-neck horse immensely, and can even undo some of the hind-end damage in a teenage horse that comes from moving incorrectly for a lifetime.

That said, what you would get from that would not be a highly competitive dressage horse that would win you ribbons. You might never get really high levels of collection or suspension. But you would get a better horse.[/QUOTE] In order to improve/develop a horse with conformation difficulties, the rider needs to know what they are doing. That doesn’t come naturally. That comes from time spent in training. Most riders capable of riding well enough to bring along a poorly conformed horse choose not to buy such a horse. Most good trainers are not interested in working with riders with such horses because <good> trainers are busy, and their book is already over flowing with a waiting list. The large majority of dressage-unsuitable horses are owned by people that don’t have the ability to train them nor the money to pay for training. I don’t understand why people what to make this sport harder than it is by trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

#65

:yes: ^^^^

#66

[QUOTE=Mnsn2Mzrt;8525655]
Have some class people. Stay on topic or leave.[/QUOTE]

I have no problem with going off topic unless any OP would prefer their thread stay on topic.

Regardless of who wants what horse to practice the discipline of dressage, there is a training scale (pyramid ?) that was created to aid practitioners in doing things the correct way. Depending on the conformation of the horse, any horse can start with the first requisite and continue as far as the horse is capable of. Because the horse may not make it above training level or make it to Grand Prix, I do not see the training pyramid excluding those horses who are only capable of reaching the basics.

#67

[QUOTE=ToN Farm;8526336]
In order to improve/develop a horse with conformation difficulties, the rider needs to know what they are doing. That doesn’t come naturally. That comes from time spent in training. Most riders capable of riding well enough to bring along a poorly conformed horse choose not to buy such a horse. Most good trainers are not interested in working with riders with such horses because <good> trainers are busy, and their book is already over flowing with a waiting list. The large majority of dressage-unsuitable horses are owned by people that don’t have the ability to train them nor the money to pay for training. I don’t understand why people what to make this sport harder than it is by trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying that people should be buying poorly conformed horses and training them for the discipline of dressage. Quite the opposite. Indeed, the discipline of dressage is becoming quite breed-specific, or at least type-specific. The emphasis on natural big gaits and suspension means that your smart competition dressage prospect today would be a good warmblood, or a horse of another breed that moves like a warmblood.

But the basics of traditional dressage training can improve a horse in all disciplines, and yes, there are endurance riders who have used dressage training to improve their horse’s way of going and overall soundness. My coach has done dressage training clinics for Western reining, and teaches dressage to all her clients, including the jumpers. It’s her basic mode of riding and training, from which all other disciplines can emerge.

It’s true that Western Pleasure and Saddle Seat probably would have no use for dressage, though, because much (I didn’t say all, or everyone, just much!) of what is done in those disciplines runs counter to what is biomechanically correct for the horse.

When I say traditional dressage training (or classical dressage, or just correct dressage), I obviously don’t mean the rather brutal shortcuts that I see some low-level trainers and riders taking to start their horses. I don’t mean longing a green horse in tight side reins for weeks to get a “head set” or “frame,” I don’t mean riding cranked in behind the vertical, and I don’t mean hauling the horse into a four-beat western “cantalope” instead of a collected canter. I mean the basics of reaching for the bit, of lateral mobility, of engaging the hocks, of becoming both straight and flexible at the same time.

And while this basic correct training isn’t going to make every horse a competitive dressage star, it is nevertheless the correct foundation for those horses that will go on to compete. Seeing how it works on a less than perfect horse is very educational for understanding how it works on a much better horse. So I don’t think that discussions of “dressage as training” are out of place on the Dressage forum, since the foundations are the same, and if there are holes in the basic training, the upper-level work will suffer.

#68

And one of the equally important parts to this equation is The Rider. I would not let anyone get on my horse that hasn’t had enough training to be an educated rider. A person needs to be able to ride without cranking, pulling, snatching, balancing by rein, not have control of their seat and legs, and not make my horse mad !!!

#69

[QUOTE=Velvet;8525812]
BTW, anyone hiding a garage gnome…or Aunt Esther’s purse?[/QUOTE]

Velvet, you know Aunt Esther has way more than just one purse.

#70

[QUOTE=ToN Farm;8526336]
In order to improve/develop a horse with conformation difficulties, the rider needs to know what they are doing. That doesn’t come naturally. That comes from time spent in training. Most riders capable of riding well enough to bring along a poorly conformed horse choose not to buy such a horse. Most good trainers are not interested in working with riders with such horses because <good> trainers are busy, and their book is already over flowing with a waiting list. The large majority of dressage-unsuitable horses are owned by people that don’t have the ability to train them nor the money to pay for training. I don’t understand why people what to make this sport harder than it is by trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.[/QUOTE]

Very true if one is setting out to have a dressage performance horse. If one has an every day, back yard, horse that they want to be the best they can it’s a different story. Some don’t have the luxury of “picking the best fruit”. They work with what they have.

#71

[QUOTE=alicen;8526439]
Velvet, you know Aunt Esther has way more than just one purse.[/QUOTE]

Not based on Redd Foxx. :wink:

#72

In order to improve/develop a horse with conformation difficulties, the rider needs to know what they are doing. That doesn’t come naturally. That comes from time spent in training. Most riders capable of riding well enough to bring along a poorly conformed horse choose not to buy such a horse. Most good trainers are not interested in working with riders with such horses because <good> trainers are busy, and their book is already over flowing with a waiting list. The large majority of dressage-unsuitable horses are owned by people that don’t have the ability to train them nor the money to pay for training. I don’t understand why people what to make this sport harder than it is by trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

You are correct, at least in my own experience on all accounts. That being said I’m one of those ‘damn people’ who insist on riding that square peg. I, as many know, still am owned by my beloved breed, the Welsh Cob.

Tomorrow there will be two competing at a recognized show at PSG. Both I, an amateur, trained from the ground up. Both have conformation that works against them; but are sound and have achieved scores above 60 at this level. One is now 18 and will be ridden by his current owner. He competed at PSG for the first time scoring 63 and change at the age of 11 when I still owned him. The other is coming 14 and scored 62 and change his first time out at a recognized show at that level, less than a year ago with, me, his owner, on board. Both of these are geldings and were acquired for purposes that originally did not have to do with keeping them for dressage competition; but, life being what it is…here they are.

Some of us do work with what we have because we want to make them the best that they can be and we simply love the beauty of the discipline. What I will concede to is that as a former breeder who has selected those within my breed for the purpose of producing a dressage suitable type, I believe I have succeeded in finding the right niche to produce better conformation, keep the brain and disposition and thus look forward to an ‘easier’ time of it. My coming two year old colt, another section D welsh cob, which I chose to retain before selling his parents will determine if I’m right as will the others I’ve put on the ground and sold.

It takes time to produce such individuals. Fortunately for me all the while I was breeding, I’ve had more than one gelding/mare who were still useful for my journey in learning how to ride, train and show dressage. I’m still on that journey and…subscribe to…

Ride what you love and love what you ride. If you have the wherewithal, the guidance and the knowledge/experience (which can be developed by those who are focused) you can achieve a lot even with those that are ‘conformationally’ challenged. That isn’t to say to buy ‘unsound’ conformation and force it to suffer; but, it is to say that dressage done correctly can transform a lot of horses into ‘that swan’ many of us keep seeking and never realize was in our own backyard all this time. It does take an understanding of training (dressage), conditioning, realistic expectations and proper application of biomechanics to achieve this and that is possible.

#73

[QUOTE=ToN Farm;8526336]
In order to improve/develop a horse with conformation difficulties, the rider needs to know what they are doing. That doesn’t come naturally. That comes from time spent in training. Most riders capable of riding well enough to bring along a poorly conformed horse choose not to buy such a horse. Most good trainers are not interested in working with riders with such horses because <good> trainers are busy, and their book is already over flowing with a waiting list. The large majority of dressage-unsuitable horses are owned by people that don’t have the ability to train them nor the money to pay for training. I don’t understand why people what to make this sport harder than it is by trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with your post in theory… There are not many perfect horses, and some of the horses with perfect dressage conformation can’t move or don’t have the brain! I’ve seen more then a few that were just gorgeous standing still, then they moved, and it was a WTF moment:lol: Have a friend who had a Hanoverian mare - who was probably almost perfect - she was GORGEOUS. She brought her to an educational event, and the judge (both a DSHB and S judge AND a breeder and trainer) looked at her and his mouth fell open. He declared her to be one of the most beautiful mares he’s seen in a long time. Then she walked. And trotted. And cantered. And no more gushing - she just couldn’t move, which is how my friend was able to afford a mare with perfect conformation - she was never going to be competitive.

And others who have some really funky conformation, and do really well! There is one Dutch WB stallion (not naming names) that throws some really quirky conformation, but they can MOVE. Especially in the canter. So when you see them just standing, it is a bit puzzling, this is an upper level dressage horse?

And of course, there is the brain issue - some of them are athletically capable, but the brain just can’t handle dressage - and I’ve seen a LOT of those fancy Warmbloods who did great at Training and First Level. Then the minute they are asked to be a bit more contained, they become explosive.

And there are a lot of variations in conformational deficiencies - for example, slightly straight hind leg, or slightly upright shoulder, or slightly long loin are different then post legged or other more significant issues. Toeing in, not such a huge issue. Slightly bench kneed, not such a huge issue. I ride a mare who is a bit long in the loin, and a bit short in the hip - you’d guess she could never piaffe or passage, but 2 sessions with an in-hand expert - he was just amazed at how easy it was for her. Of course, she is held back by her rider :lol:

Then there is financial reality - most of us can’t afford to buy the “perfect” dressage horse. And some of us aren’t capable of riding such a horse. And some of us just love the type or breed we ride - and are willing to overlook that it may be a bit harder for our horse. As ExVet points out - if the horse’s brain is in the right place, and the rider is capable, it is very rewarding to take your horse up the levels, even if they aren’t “perfect”.

And some conformational issues get better with correct training - I’ve seen horses with upside down necks, low set necks, etc that improved dramatically with good riding. Weaker loins or backs that improved with good muscling.

To the OP - things I would most worry about are crooked legs, post legged behind, very weak loin/back, or tiny feet in relation to the size of the body. Or, and really long pasterns. These horses may be able to do dressage, but keeping them sound will be a struggle, and getting them to lift their back and start to develop collection will be a struggle.

#74

I love to work with those horses who are mentally challenged, whether it be explosive or stubborn or lazy. I find it much easier than working with a horse with a low set neck.

#75

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8528759]
Toeing in, not such a huge issue. Slightly bench kneed, not such a huge issue. [/QUOTE]
I had a consultation with sport horse farrier at an equine medical hospital. He said that it’s very common for the big warmbloods to have this conformation and he has seen it so much in horses that stay perfectly sound that he no longer considers it an issue. He says it’s related to how broad and heavy they are. They need to toe-in to keep their legs underneath of them because they are bench kneed. The two faults offset each other. Clearly, it’s not desirable, but apparently pretty much a non-issue. I’d never breed a horse with the faults, though.

#76

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8528829]
I love to work with those horses who are mentally challenged, whether it be explosive or stubborn or lazy. I find it much easier than working with a horse with a low set neck.[/QUOTE]

LOL! Our specialty at the track. “He’s a problem…give him to the girls”. I’ve had a soft spot for this type ever since too.

#77

Some excellent posts…the saying, "dressage is good for all horses, but not all horses are good for dressage ", is true, the same could be said for riders.

Many riders want to ride dressage, but not all have the capability of riding it well enough to benefit the horse. Which is a hard thing for any of us to recognize (I struggle with this)

Interesting that within some variation (longer legs vs shorter legs etc), people tend to have more similar conformation to each other than horses do. Assuming equivalent level of fitness/weight, and years riding, why are two riders like this so far apart in their skill and ability in dressage? It has to be timing and coordination and mental focus…same as with a horse. I agree with those that say the brain /temperament is an important factor in a horse too often overlooked.

Barring some terrible conformation fault, any horse that can hold itself upright and move soundly with a pure gait from point A to point B can do dressage, with some breeds of course bred for optimum movement/ability to collect.

#78

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8529663]

Interesting that within some variation (longer legs vs shorter legs etc), people tend to have more similar conformation to each other than horses do. Assuming equivalent level of fitness/weight, and years riding, why are two riders like this so far apart in their skill and ability in dressage? .[/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree - I think people have just as many conformational differences as horses - BUT… We aren’t all standing naked, lined up with someone pointing those differences out. Some of us toe in, some toe out, some have long bodies, some have short bodies, some have wide hips, others are narrow, some have a tendancy to stick their neck out (this is often a spinal issue, not just a bad habit), some don’t, some have spinal issues (curvatures or too straight), some are knock kneed, some are bow-legged, some have short arms, some have long arms, some have flat pelvic floors, some don’t, the list goes on and on. We have a wide variety of conformation issues that are seldom discussed. If you do any personal fitness training, you’ll probably learn a bit about some of your body’s challenges.

And just like horses - some of us are just innately more athletic, more balanced, more flexible, more toned. Some of us must work much harder at it.

#79

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8529663]
Many riders want to ride dressage, but not all have the capability of riding it well enough to benefit the horse. Which is a hard thing for any of us to recognize (I struggle with this) [/QUOTE] This is quite true. Some of the reason for this is that they do not understand what the goal of dressage is. I think ‘doing dressage’ needs to be defined so that we are all on the same page.

This is true and then defines ‘doing dressage’ as basically being able to walk/trot/canter, turn, circle, and stop. When I speak of dressage, I am not talking about competitive dressage, breed prejudice, stellar moving horses, collection, etc. I am talking about just the bottom ladder of dressage training for the horse, where he is free/foward and on the bit with a swinging back. I believe there are conformations that make getting even this difficult.

#80

That is true, people have conformation differences, with some conformation better suited for riding or certain disciplines than others.

But assuming two people with equivalent build and proportions and same years riding access to same trainer, why is one a better dressage rider than another? It’s timing, focus, ability, as well as endurance and energy level.

The longer I live the more I see success as willingness to endure discomfort and frustration. Sure dressage can be rewarding and sublime, but it can also be exhausting, frustrating and hard on the body. I made the mistake when starting out in it thinking it would be easy since all they were doing was going in circles ( how it looked at the time)

I think the same is true of horses, those who thrive in any discipline including dressage have the needed endurance and energy and can take a certain amount of discomfort in training (not rider imposed discomfort but the discomfort of being asked to do more than they would do in a less demanding mode)

Get your Digital Subscription here - only $21.95 / year

Subscribe here
See gift options

Sign up to our monthly newsletter!

By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.

Copyright © 2023 The Chronicle of the Horse