It is right after I get the reins over his head, before I even put the bit in. I originally thought it was a bit problem. It started in late fall last year. He had his teeth floated in August, so is approaching being due for them, but the issue started only a couple months after. I used to warm up the bit in my bra first (I know, very classy. But this is how I choose to spend my mornings in January). Then I switched to a happy mouth Mullen mouth, thinking plastic wouldn’t get as cold. This went on for months. I only took off the noseband about a month ago and it resolved very quickly.
This will sound stupid, but do you check the plastic mouthpiece of the happy mouth regularly for sharp edges? The hunter coach my daughter rides with loves happy mouths. I was not-so-happy that it lasted all of 3 rides before the pony gnawed on it hard enough to create a razor-sharp edge right near her tongue on one side.
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A correctly fitted caveson has space to insert two finger widths underneath at the front of the face. The idea of using a noseband to hold the mouth closed or, even worse, “to stop the bit falling out of it’s mouth” is a habit of only the last few years. Dressage riders loose points if tension is evident through the horse opening its mouth. Quick solution, rather than riding with softer hands, is to crank the mouth shut.
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Consider having a body worker check his TMJ and poll.
I’ve also seen some people hold the noseband up with the hand that’s holding the top of the bridle as part of their regular bridling routine. I think if he doesn’t gape his mouth while riding a loose but not flapping noseband would be what you need for the hunter ring, but maybe this technique could help with the bridling part. And not using one at home.
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The correct fitting for a cavesson noseband is loose enough for two fingers of space below the jaw. The function of a cavesson noseband is to attach a standing martingale to, NOT to be cranked tight to keep the mouth closed. The correct position is inside the cheekpieces, not outside. Check that your cavesson noseband is correctly fitted when you put your bridle on. Your coach should know these things, as should you, as a part of your basic education as a rider and horseman. The judge at the horse show should know this too. Any judge that disqualifies you from a placing because your noseband is done up correctly is not worth paying an entry fee for (and they are out there). Just because everyone else’s horse is wearing a noseband that is cranked up tight doesn’t mean that your horse has to as well.
If you wish to ride at home without a noseband, this is certainly an option, and isn’t treasonous or ground breaking, and it’s no one’s business but your own. For competition in the hunter divisions, you need to have one to put onto your bridle one though because it is required equipment, just do it up loose, it’s only for show. You can do it up looser than 2 fingers space of room if you like, if your horse prefers it this way. No one will notice. You don’t need a “fake” noseband to do this.
Don’t allow yourself to be bullied into submission, to do like all the others are doing, to do something that you know is wrong and you know your horse does not approve of, just because everyone else is doing it that way. Don’t use the noseband with the hidden spikes on the inside of it, done up tight, like others do. Have a line that you won’t cross, when it comes to decisions about tack and equipment, health care, and what you feel is right and wrong about the care and treatment of your horse. Educate yourself to form your opinions, ask the opinions of others (as you have done here). Then you become a horseman in your own right, in time. Good on ya!
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Yes, that is exactly how I do it. He doesn’t gape at the mouth, so the noseband to me just feels cosmetic. I agree about the two finger widths’ but I think some people interpret that as two fingers side-by-side, vs two fingers stacked. The thing is I consistently kept it very loose and he still tensed about bridling. Maybe it’s something about the added poll pressure, not jaw/noseband? I wonder if a more ergonomic bridle, like some of the models from PS of Sweden, would fix it.
You could experiment before you spend hundreds of dollars on a special bridle.
Just thread the noseband hanger through the brow band loops so it is OVER on top of the crown-piece instead of under it. If the horse improves maybe one of the new type bridles will help.
If that does not help it may be time to get creative and make up a new type of noseband.
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Yes, this is how I had it at the in-gate when my trainer noticed I’d put it back on incorrectly (this is what I meant by over the cheek piece strap—not on the sides, but at the top on the poll). I guess I’d have to try it out regularly to see if he minds it less. He wasn’t resistant to bridling with the noseband at the show, but I suspect it’s because he’s gotten so used to bridling without it. So it felt like I “duped” him. I could try it that way regularly if it’s subtle enough that it won’t catch attention at shows. And next time I can tell my trainer I put it on that way on purpose, instead of just giving her a blank look
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Asking you trainer for help/advice/an explanation makes a lot of sense here.
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First I do not show. I always use two fingers side-to-side vertically, angled across the lower jaw bones, to check the tightness of the noseband. One day my riding teacher yelled at me to tighten the noseband of my first horse. It was snug. My horse turned from a horse with a super responsive relaxed mouth horse to one with an iron jaw set like a vise.
I hate nosebands, and whenever I get a Micklem bridle the first thing I do is remove the chin strap. The first time I put the Micklem bridle on a horse (finicky Arab mare) she sighed with relief–until I buckled the chin strap. She HATED any type of pressure on her nasal bone.
When I decided to go to double bridles I was determined to 1) use my altered Micklem head stall, and worried about the horses’ comfort I put the bradoon strap over the crown piece. I did NOT even consider one of those bridles that have the slot to pass the bradoon hanger through to go over the crown piece as I was worried it would irritate the horses (in my book probably one of the bigger sins.)
I wish you very good luck in finding an alternative that works for your horse. I’ve removed the noseband from the bridles for around 10 horses and these horses seemed to approve of this, problems went away and the horses were easier to control for me.
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Good on you for recognizing his discomfort and wanting to come up with a best-for-him solution.
FWIW, Sue Dyson and colleagues recently published work on abnormal behaviours during tacking up and mounting. I remember her talking about the yawning during bridling being abnormal in the presentation I watched, simply because I personally had actually passed that off as nothing in so many horses over the years.
Since it sounds like tightness isn’t really your issue, you may well be on to something that it’s actually the poll strap portion of the noseband at the root of the issue. In fact, research by Centaur Biomechanics in the UK has shown that the traditional configuration of noseband under the crownpiece does create a measurable strip of pressure. So it would be well worth trying a monocrown or bridle that has holes to run the noseband on top. [Also, make sure your browband is large enough and the holes are large enough that adding the noseband isn’t making the piece at the base of the ear “bulge”. Probably not your problem since it’s ok without the noseband, but too tight browbands are very common.]
The Centaur group also found that “crank” nosebands actually had better pressure distribution than a traditional cavesson. Of course, they studied them at an appropriate tightness, not “cranked” shut. But it seemed to be that the rings at the side allowed for some independent movement between the upper and lower jaw. I’m not sure if these are considered “unconventional” by hunter judges, but it could be something to add to your list to try.
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I also had a slightly larger noseband on my last horse (I actually didn’t intentionally buy it that way and it just turned out to fit my horse that way, but ended up being really convenient!), which was good for this reason!
I was always taught to allow for two fingers’ width of room between the noseband and the horse (is that still a thing?), and the amount of times I’ve had people reach up and tighten my noseband is astonishing. I’m not even sure what the purpose is considering it doesn’t look different, and I can’t imagine it being a safety issue or functioning in a more productive way (being a standard caveson). I wonder what the reasoning for it is?
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I was wondering if the two fingers rule was still a thing, since that is what I was taught, but have had plenty of people tighten my nosebands! I never did understand the reasoning for it, considering a standard hunter caveson can’t really hold the mouth shut.
I do this as well! I find a lot of horses are happier without the noseband straps flapping around their face as I’m bridling them, and it keeps them out of the way until I’m ready for them as well.
Yeah…Exactly this from IPEsq … poll, TMJ releases (youtube mastersons method). Horses hold tension in their jaws too. You can massage his big old cheeks. You should be able to feel like his skin floats over the muscles on his cheeks. If you don’t feel that suppleness you can work on it. Mine did a lot of yawning in the past. When i changed his crown to the Arion piece it virtually stopped. Only happens every once in a while. I was actually wondering if you use a monocrown?
May not be a noseband issue. Although less is always more:)
It seems strange that there’s something fundamentally wrong with this horse and yet it goes fine under saddle even with the nose band.
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This whole thing sounds like sloppy bridling technique that pisses the horse off, and a horse doing the “turn the head away” thing that almost every horse does.
If the horse started the head turning while you’re putting the reins over the neck, this has nothing to do with the noseband. The tension surrounding the noseband is not about the noseband if it’s just through bridling. He’s not happy with how you’re getting the bridle on his face, OP.
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Agreed.
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The correct (as in old) method is for two fingers (stacked) to be able to be inserted under the noseband if it’s a cavesson. Just as the correct (as in old also) method for the throat latch is the fist. Standard martingales were correctly (as in old also) method were to be able to reach from the girth to the neck/head connection at the throat. I have never been able to figure out which idiot in the USA decided that cavasson nosebands, throat latches and standard martingales were supposed to be tight, tight. I have never seen anything other than a bearing rein and a backbit, quite so stupid and cruel as a modern noseband, throat latch and martinage configuration on today’s hunters and some jumpers. Come on people, would you buy a bra that constricts your chest, trousers that you have to lay down to wear and a part of boots two sizes to small and then go out and exercise??? This shouldn’t even be a discussion, the gate person, steward, judge or the darn trainer should be NOT permitting this.
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I admit I have not been to a hunter show in a couple of years but… um… My experience does not match yours. Most hunters I know have their martingale set so it does almost nothing (so not too short like you describe) and the jumpers usually use a running martingale.
I also have not seen many (if any) crazy tight throatlatches.
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