Is this "daisy cutter" movement?

[RugBug]

OP, I think there is some potential there but you’d need to work for it. Also, if the horse is barefoot, shoes could erode a borderline daisy cutter into a non-daisy cutter. Your horse does look a bit sore in front and I wouldn’t say he’s got a long stride…he’s kind of stiff and not really using his shoulder right now.

[QUOTE=vxf111;8818072]
I can’t find a super good video but there’s a local sidesaddle horse in my area named Garnet that I think is a prime example of what daisy cutters look like today. A little less throughbredy than when I was a kid, but a daisy cutter for sure. There was also a mare by Just the Best whose name escapes me (bay with white, not a big mare). I don’t think she ever become a bigtime horse or anything but that trot was as daisy cutter as I’ve seen on a non TB.

I feel like they heyday of the DC is over and it makes me sad. All things being equal I will take a DC over a more “warmblood” style good moved any day. But they seem to be harder and harder to find.[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen plenty of daisy cutters out there and I don’t the dc movement has anything to do with breed/registry. Rumba is a pretty darn good example. There was a horse named Sin City on the west coast that was amazing. There are tons of ponies that are top examples of daisy cutters and they rarely have TB blood. The movement is more a function of anatomy rather than blood.

I would wager there are just as many amazing WB daisy cutters are there are TB daisy cutters.

[greysfordays]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8821337]
OP, I think there is some potential there but you’d need to work for it. Also, if the horse is barefoot, shoes could erode a borderline daisy cutter into a non-daisy cutter. Your horse does look a bit sore in front and I wouldn’t say he’s got a long stride…he’s kind of stiff and not really using his shoulder right now.

I’ve seen plenty of daisy cutters out there and I don’t the dc movement has anything to do with breed/registry. Rumba is a pretty darn good example. There was a horse named Sin City on the west coast that was amazing. There are tons of ponies that are top examples of daisy cutters and they rarely have TB blood. The movement is more a function of anatomy rather than blood.

I would wager there are just as many amazing WB daisy cutters are there are TB daisy cutters.[/QUOTE]

AHH!! sidetrack alert!!! That’s my trainer in the video, he is always talking about Sin City. He would sometimes compare him to my (just sold :o) horse.

I’ve noticed that my trainer is particularly keen on good movers! I couldn’t figure it out until I realized that almost every time I walked away with tri-color ribbon I usually edged out by winning the hack. Momma doesn’t have to find any jumps in the hack! :winkgrin:

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8822738]
AHH!! sidetrack alert!!! That’s my trainer in the video, he is always talking about Sin City. He would sometimes compare him to my (just sold :o) horse.

I’ve noticed that my trainer is particularly keen on good movers! I couldn’t figure it out until I realized that almost every time I walked away with tri-color ribbon I usually edged out by winning the hack. Momma doesn’t have to find any jumps in the hack! :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

I drooled over Sin City many, many times. The link I posted didn’t really show him at his best, but man that horse can move. Your former horse is lovely as well.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8822780]
I drooled over Sin City many, many times. The link I posted didn’t really show him at his best, but man that horse can move. Your former horse is lovely as well. :D[/QUOTE]

---- yes sidetrack alert ------ but still discussing daisy cutters

Yes - Sin City was a very nice horse!!! Another they had that was so amazing was Undeniable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XkQ2Nv-kuA

And YES Greysfordays - he knows a nice hunter for sure!!! Lovely ride in your video too!!!

This is my Zig when he was just a green bean - https://www.facebook.com/shel.sanderson.9/videos/vb.100001052770584/571716502873437/?type=3&theater

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=findeight;8817880]
Well, in the free lunge video he’s not moving out enough on that tiny sort of circle he’s not staying on to tell much at all, he’s not using himself ir on a proper bend and is humped up trying to buck when the dangling irons bang him. The under saddle one he’s too Green to relax into a good trot and he’s sucking back. Not going to judge him on his movement or potential off these. Need to see him on a long straightway at a relaxed, forward trot…being properly on the bridle also allows them to really show what they can do.

I don’t see any serious “naughty” anywhere, just a horse that doesn’t know what to do. That’s not his fault.

He doesn’t appear to have the potential to be a daisy cutter, which is fine, don’t see it so much in these days of the WBs. I don’t see long strided here at all here. That might be just a function of Greeness and lack of condition/balance but, IME, if they don’t track up even early on, the step is not there. But also don’t see awkward or clumsy, he’s doing OK, no worries.

Hes cute, like to see him after 90 days in a good program. Nice type you coukd go several directions with…even if he doesn’t have that sweeping flat kneed trot step from the shoulder and a 14’ stride.[/QUOTE]

agreed ^

and just curious, what is his shoeing set up? to me, i saw a lack of wanting to extend through the shoulder, but to me it almost looks like he is foot sore over shoulder sore. thin soles? hard ground?

once you get him comfortable i think he’ll be a much better mover. the potential is there: he is a very nice type and IMHO, a better mover than average for a TB.

i like him and would not kick him out of my barn. i’d investigate why he’s tender up front; i think his trot shows a lot of potential and i have seen many horses who move like that go from a ‘6’ to an ‘8’ with good, proper training & farrier work.

he is not what i’d call a daisy cutter, but when i think of ‘daisy cutter’ i don’t think of it as a good mover… around here it seems to be a cutesy way to describe a fairly average trot and canter that IMHO lack impulsion.

[vxf111]

Proper GOOD daisy cutter movement is not an average mover that lacks impulsion. There’s a lightness to it that you don’t see even in good ‘warmblood type’ movers*

The difference between a daisy cutter good mover and the other type of good hunter movement is a matter of lightness and movement straight across the ground. Both types of movements have flat knees and hocks. Both types of movers go with impulsion, are forward moving, and are pushing from behind. The daisy cutter mover is flat and light across the ground. He just seems to skim. He flicks his toe. Because he’s so flat across the ground, his shoes would just clip off the tops of the daisies. There is no moment of suspension between strides. It’s almost like he’s a toy on wheels being pulled on a string. The other type of mover has a distinct moment of suspension between each stride. He looks less like he’s moving lightly across the ground but more like he’s moving across and up over the ground. He would not clip the tops of the daisies because he’s pushing himself up that little bit more BEFORE he moves across. So he’s over the daisies a bit. Maybe he’d just lightly divot them when he lands between strides

I don’t see too many true daisy cutter movers anymore. The hack winning types I see in my area now are certainly flat but they’re moving more the other way. I call that more of a ‘warmblood movement’ for lack of any better term.

*I think upthread some of what I was saying was misconstrued as me saying TBs are daisy cutters and WBs are not. I’m just using this term for lack of a better term to describe what I think of as the other type of good moving hunter. Back in the 80s it seems like all the good movers were mostly daisy cutters. By coincidence, most of the hunters were TBs or QHs. Now most of the good movers are the OTHER type of good mover. And most of the hunters are WB. Not saying a WB can’t be a daisy cutter and a TB can’t be the other type of good mover. Just that, at least in my area, you don’t see as many daisy cutter movers as the other type of good mover. And I prefer the daisy cutter movement but don’t see as much of it when I am out shopping as back in the day.

[beowulf]

vxf11, i would think no suspension is a negative thing. i have seen a few ‘true daisy cutter’ movers - there is little to no action in the knees or hock which in my frank opinion is not a positive attribute.

‘toe flicking’ is something else entirely, but many people call that daisy cutting too which IMHO is erroneous as you can have horses with extravagant movement flick and you can have horses with flat movement flick from an old extensor injury; toe flicking is really not a correct way of going. i would take a horse with suspension, lift and articulation in its strides any day over a horse that has little to no articulation of the joints and a flat-kneed, flat-bodied style of going, which usually correlates into a flat way of going over fences and long spots.

‘daisy cutter’ seems to mean different things to different people; in my local HJ scene a daisy cutter moves like the majority of the horses in this ring (not my video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jVDdMvtEwA

but then i see people use ‘daisy cutter’ to describe a horse like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-SY0-ZQNnU

or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YJzsR4ULUQ

i think daisy cutter is a buzz word - meant to generate interest and rarely completely understood.

but – i am an eventer. we need different things.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8823622]
vxf11, i would think no suspension is a negative thing. i have seen a few ‘true daisy cutter’ movers - there is little to no action in the knees or hock which in my frank opinion is not a positive attribute.

‘toe flicking’ is something else entirely, but many people call that daisy cutting too which IMHO is erroneous as you can have horses with extravagant movement flick and you can have horses with flat movement flick from an old extensor injury; toe flicking is really not a correct way of going. i would take a horse with suspension, lift and articulation in its strides any day over a horse that has little to no articulation of the joints and a flat-kneed, flat-bodied style of going, which usually correlates into a flat way of going over fences and long spots.

‘daisy cutter’ seems to mean different things to different people; in my local HJ scene a daisy cutter moves like the majority of the horses in this ring (not my video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jVDdMvtEwA

but then i see people use ‘daisy cutter’ to describe a horse like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-SY0-ZQNnU

or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YJzsR4ULUQ

i think daisy cutter is a buzz word - meant to generate interest and rarely completely understood.

but – i am an eventer. we need different things. ;)[/QUOTE]

It’s not that there’s NO suspension… it’s that there isn’t a long moment of suspension between ground pats. The amount of time between suspension and ground pats is much more equal and the moment of suspension is less noticeable. Of course a good mover isn’t ACTUALLY skimming across the ground not lifting his feet… it just appears that way. There is suspension in both types of movers, it’s just that the moment of suspension stands out more in one versus the other. The rhythm is a little different. A daisy cutter is trotstep-trotstep-trotstep. The other type of mover is trotstep-pause-trotstep-pause.

The last thing I would use to describe any of the horses in those videos is “daisy cutter.” They’re about the opposite of what I think the definition of the term means. The quarter horses are flat movers but not at all daisy cutter. The hackney and standard bred have lots of knee/hock action. None of those would be considered good movers at at USEF H/J show although some of those QHs may have the potential to be more along the lines of a decent USEF hunter mover if ridden differently.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8823456]

he is not what i’d call a daisy cutter, but when i think of ‘daisy cutter’ i don’t think of it as a good mover… around here it seems to be a cutesy way to describe a fairly average trot and canter that IMHO lack impulsion.[/QUOTE]

If that is the definition of daisy cutter in your area, I would wonder about the discipline (AQHA, ApHA, APHA, perhaps?) or knowledge level of the people you are talking too.

In USEF hunters, daisy cutter is the utmost praise. There is nothing average about it.

[QUOTE=beowulf;8823622]
‘toe flicking’ is something else entirely, but many people call that daisy cutting too which IMHO is erroneous as you can have horses with extravagant movement flick and you can have horses with flat movement flick from an old extensor injury; toe flicking is really not a correct way of going.[/QUOTE]

Toe flicking is not daisy cutting. You often see toe flicking in the extended trot of dressage. It’s that extra flip of the foot at the apex of the stride. Some daisy cutters will flick, but not all. To put a visual to the daisy cutter toe flick, it’s like when you show someone your nails. The hand is extended out, but the wrist is not completely extended.

‘daisy cutter’ seems to mean different things to different people; in my local HJ scene a daisy cutter moves like the majority of the horses in this ring (not my video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jVDdMvtEwA

but then i see people use ‘daisy cutter’ to describe a horse like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-SY0-ZQNnU

or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YJzsR4ULUQ

i think daisy cutter is a buzz word - meant to generate interest and rarely completely understood.

but – i am an eventer. we need different things.

It’s true that the term means different things to different people but within the context of USEF Hunters, daisy cutter is pretty understood by the participants and we know one when we see one. For instance, I disagree with vxf111 that a daisy cutter does not have the moment of suspension. Yes, the TBs and even ponies don’t have as much as most WBs, but that doesn’t mean the the movement is no longer daisy cutter.

Not one of the links you posted is an example of daisy cutters. The QH’s are flat movers, but there is no extension, no use of the shoulder. The are all moving very downhill. They would not be successful in a USEF u/s unless there was no company. The other two don’t even approach daisy cutting and I would seriously question anyone that calls them that.

This pony is a daisy cutter The trot at the end of the third video shows it decently. (the beginning of the videos show her not really using herself as well as she can.

doublestable’s big chestnut is a wonderful daisy cutter (although I think she has videos where he is using him self a bit more…taking longer steps with more push than the one when he is young).

The white horse in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMweAoTU-IM

This pony has an amazing canter…but they don’t show the trot at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3uLmmYhFns

As you pointed out, you often see a less then perfect jump from the extreme flat movement…it’s why you can’t concentrate on just the trot. The more important gaits are the canter and walk. Usually a good canter means a good jump. There has to be freedom in the shoulder for the jump to be good.

You cannot rely on someone telling you their horse is a “good mover” partly because that definition changes between disciplines, but also because it’s a marketing tactic. Every horse that ever won a hack somewhere is a hack winner. That doesn’t mean they are a top company hack winner.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8823900]
For instance, I disagree with vxf111 that a daisy cutter does not have the moment of suspension.[/QUOTE]

Today must not be may day for success in English. Because I don’t think I said (and did not mean) that there is no moment of suspension (as in there actually literally is no suspension) . I said there isn’t as long/noticeable of a moment. It doesn’t visually stand out the same way. There is a pause, it’s just much shorter and less obvious if you counted the rhythm.

[pony_grandma]

My daughter rode a smallish TB mare when she was younger, (mare was her Xmas present when she was 10 yrs old , daughter, not mare) and she was what I refer to as a daisy cutter. She was very smooth for a child to learn to ride.

My definition also includes the term ‘swaps leads in the grass’, if that is a visual that will help you. And she never lacked for impulsion scores on her dressage!!

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8823900]
If that is the definition of daisy cutter in your area, I would wonder about the discipline (AQHA, ApHA, APHA, perhaps?) or knowledge level of the people you are talking too.

In USEF hunters, daisy cutter is the utmost praise. There is nothing average about it.

Toe flicking is not daisy cutting. You often see toe flicking in the extended trot of dressage. It’s that extra flip of the foot at the apex of the stride. Some daisy cutters will flick, but not all. To put a visual to the daisy cutter toe flick, it’s like when you show someone your nails. The hand is extended out, but the wrist is not completely extended.

It’s true that the term means different things to different people but within the context of USEF Hunters, daisy cutter is pretty understood by the participants and we know one when we see one. For instance, I disagree with vxf111 that a daisy cutter does not have the moment of suspension. Yes, the TBs and even ponies don’t have as much as most WBs, but that doesn’t mean the the movement is no longer daisy cutter.

Not one of the links you posted is an example of daisy cutters. The QH’s are flat movers, but there is no extension, no use of the shoulder. The are all moving very downhill. They would not be successful in a USEF u/s unless there was no company. The other two don’t even approach daisy cutting and I would seriously question anyone that calls them that.

This pony is a daisy cutter The trot at the end of the third video shows it decently. (the beginning of the videos show her not really using herself as well as she can.

doublestable’s big chestnut is a wonderful daisy cutter (although I think she has videos where he is using him self a bit more…taking longer steps with more push than the one when he is young).

The white horse in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMweAoTU-IM

This pony has an amazing canter…but they don’t show the trot at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3uLmmYhFns

As you pointed out, you often see a less then perfect jump from the extreme flat movement…it’s why you can’t concentrate on just the trot. The more important gaits are the canter and walk. Usually a good canter means a good jump. There has to be freedom in the shoulder for the jump to be good.

You cannot rely on someone telling you their horse is a “good mover” partly because that definition changes between disciplines, but also because it’s a marketing tactic. Every horse that ever won a hack somewhere is a hack winner. That doesn’t mean they are a top company hack winner.[/QUOTE]

oh, i know what a daisy cutter is and know that none of the links i provided or that ‘toe flicking’ are examples of daisy cutting movement. toe flicking in dressage at the extended gaits is considered a fault.

i was pointing out that word, as we know it, has many many different meanings across the board and no two people will agree on what a ‘daisy cutter’ is. your version will vary based on your discipline, what region you are in, and who you train with. case in point, that versace pony and the grey, which i thought had a decent trot but downhill canter and not using its body.

i don’t think the horse of the OP’s has daisy cutter movement. but i would not say that is a bad thing.

[vxf111]

I can think of lots of ways to describe those horses in the video but the hackney and saddlebred, I cannot imagine anyone’s definition of “daisy cutter” (in the hunter discipline) being that movement.

There may be some variation in whether you call something dark colored “ebony” or “black”… but if it’s white-- neither of those words apply

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8824059]
I can think of lots of ways to describe those horses in the video but the hackney and saddlebred, I cannot imagine anyone’s definition of “daisy cutter” (in the hunter discipline) being that movement.

There may be some variation in whether you call something dark colored “ebony” or “black”… but if it’s white-- neither of those words apply ;)[/QUOTE]

i want the record to show that i agree with you, not what i’d call ‘daisy cutter’. but that word is used fast and loose here and seems interchangeable for everything from 2/10 movers to 10/10.

if you are part of any FB page changes are you will see people describe their for-sale horses as ‘daisy cutter’ movers (looking at you, OTTB connect!) and the videos range from hilariously delusional to almost nice.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8824069]
i want the record to show that i agree with you, not what i’d call ‘daisy cutter’. but that word is used fast and loose here and seems interchangeable for everything from 2/10 movers to 10/10.

if you are part of any FB page changes are you will see people describe their for-sale horses as ‘daisy cutter’ movers (looking at you, OTTB connect!) and the videos range from hilariously delusional to almost nice.[/QUOTE]

Well, if people don’t know what they’re talking about and/or lie/exaggerate-- than it is what it is. Doesn’t change the definition of a term that people misuse it. Didn’t you know every sale horse has a 12+ jump and is a hack winner?!

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8824104]
Well, if people don’t know what they’re talking about and/or lie/exaggerate-- than it is what it is. Doesn’t change the definition of a term that people misuse it. Didn’t you know every sale horse has a 12+ jump and is a hack winner?! ;)[/QUOTE]
you forgot they’re all 17+h too! and oh, my favorite – SERIOUS UPPER LEVEL POTENTIAL!!

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8824109]
you forgot they’re all 17+h too! and oh, my favorite – SERIOUS UPPER LEVEL POTENTIAL!![/QUOTE]

Just like every profile on a dating site is by a 10/10

[PNWjumper]

In the description of the last couple of horses I’ve had for sale are the words, “not the hack winner.”

This is because neither of my last 2 have had good hunter trots. But they’ve had great jumps, and more importantly, great brains!

But I worry that stating those words “not the hack winner” means that people are picturing something with a horrifically awful shuttle-along-half-lame type trot, when really what I mean is literally “decent mover, but not a daisy cutter.”

It’s tough to be realistic in a world that thrives on superlatives, lol!

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;8824195]
In the description of the last couple of horses I’ve had for sale are the words, “not the hack winner.”

This is because neither of my last 2 have had good hunter trots. But they’ve had great jumps, and more importantly, great brains!

But I worry that stating those words “not the hack winner” means that people are picturing something with a horrifically awful shuttle-along-half-lame type trot, when really what I mean is literally “decent mover, but not a daisy cutter.”

It’s tough to be realistic in a world that thrives on superlatives, lol![/QUOTE]

I like to say “pastel ribbons in the hack” (if true). Because that rules out some lame shuffling donkey but doesn’t overstate an average mover.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8824205]
I like to say “pastel ribbons in the hack” (if true). Because that rules out some lame shuffling donkey but doesn’t overstate an average mover.[/QUOTE]

I love that! That’s a much better way to state exactly what I mean