Is this "daisy cutter" movement?

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;8824195]
In the description of the last couple of horses I’ve had for sale are the words, “not the hack winner.”

This is because neither of my last 2 have had good hunter trots. But they’ve had great jumps, and more importantly, great brains!

But I worry that stating those words “not the hack winner” means that people are picturing something with a horrifically awful shuttle-along-half-lame type trot, when really what I mean is literally “decent mover, but not a daisy cutter.”

It’s tough to be realistic in a world that thrives on superlatives, lol![/QUOTE]

Haha. I would just say nice mover and leave it at that. I’d rather let people decide for themselves. The smart folks are looking for canter quality and jump anyway rather than trot…so if you don’t have the hack winning movement, market from those aspects. Also, temperament…which I know yours have had…is huge.

beowulf: I think what I have at issue is that you said this:

when i think of ‘daisy cutter’ i don’t think of it as a good mover… around here it seems to be a cutesy way to describe a fairly average trot and canter that IMHO lack impulsion.

and then went on to continue saying you do not think a daisy cutter is a good thing/good mover. Not to put to fine a point on it, but that is completely wrong…unless you are talking in a non-USEF context or to people that are not knowlegeable to the upper levels. The origins of the term are from the hunt field and were positive. IF the term has been co-opted by other groups, fine…but that doesn’t make their definition a correct one. It makes in an uneducated one.

And yes, every sales horse is a 10 mover with a 12+ jump and is 17h. It makes reading ads an exercise in interpretation…and why I don’t believe a thing I read until I see a video (and stand next to the horse for a rough height check).

[RugBug]

@vxf111;8823958

Today must not be may day for success in English. Because I don’t think I said (and did not mean) that there is no moment of suspension (as in there actually literally is no suspension) . I said there isn’t as long/noticeable of a moment. It doesn’t visually stand out the same way. There is a pause, it’s just much shorter and less obvious if you counted the rhythm.[/QUOTE]

I get what you are saying…I just don’t believe it changes the definition of a daisy cutter at all.

[QUOTE=pony grandma;8823994]My daughter rode a smallish TB mare when she was younger, (mare was her Xmas present when she was 10 yrs old , daughter, not mare) and she was what I refer to as a daisy cutter. She was very smooth for a child to learn to ride.

I’ve never understood the connection that some people make between daisy cutter and smooth gaits. IMO, the two have nothing to do with each other. I’ve ridden sewing machines that were like sitting on a couch they were so smooth and daisy cutters that had a lot of power and threw you around a bit. YMMV.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8824275]
Not to put to fine a point on it, but that is completely wrong…unless you are talking in a non-USEF context or to people that are not knowlegeable to the upper levels. The origins of the term are from the hunt field and were positive. IF the term has been co-opted by other groups, fine…but that doesn’t make their definition a correct one. It makes in an uneducated one.

And yes, every sales horse is a 10 mover with a 12+ jump and is 17h. It makes reading ads an exercise in interpretation…and why I don’t believe a thing I read until I see a video (and stand next to the horse for a rough height check).[/QUOTE]

I think there is a difference in the quality of movement between what the peanut gallery calls daisy cutter and what those in the know call daisy cutter. I did include in my original post the caveat that I am not a H/J rider - I provided links to videos that I either saw the word ‘daisy cutter’ in or videos that the horse was described as a ‘daisy cutter’. I was not saying THEY are daisy cutters, just pointing out that the terminology is meaningless because everyone uses that term to describe their horse’s movement. That’s why I provided the links to those videos and said “but then people use DC to describe this” – I thought I made it clear it was not me ascribing them the DC attribute. I think I am being misunderstood; I was not saying any of those horses are daisy cutters, I was pointing out that people advertise everything as ‘daisy cutter’. This is not just a ‘local to me’ issue; case in point, OP’s situation.

For my discipline of choice, DC movement is not particularly competitive.

[RugBug]

@beowulf;8824315

I think there is a difference in the quality of movement between what the peanut gallery calls daisy cutter and what those in the know call daisy cutter. I did include in my original post the caveat that I am not a H/J rider - I provided links to videos that I either saw the word ‘daisy cutter’ in or videos that the horse was described as a ‘daisy cutter’. I was not saying THEY are daisy cutters, just pointing out that the terminology is meaningless because everyone uses that term to describe their horse’s movement. That’s why I provided the links to those videos and said “but then people use DC to describe this” – I thought I made it clear it was not me ascribing them the DC attribute. I think I am being misunderstood; I was not saying any of those horses are daisy cutters, I was pointing out that people advertise everything as ‘daisy cutter’. This is not just a ‘local to me’ issue; case in point, OP’s situation.

I don’t think a word loses meaning because people use it incorrectly. If that was the case, we would lose ability to communicate because every word could have a different meaning.

For my discipline of choice, DC movement is not particularly competitive.

True, true. Although I’ve seen some eventers that could become hunters. Well known example

I would never try to pick out a good dressage mover. I’m completely lost there. I see horses that look like they should be pulling a cart and they are considered good movers for dressage. That blows my mind…so I just don’t even go there. :lol:

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8824351]

I would never try to pick out a good dressage mover. I’m completely lost there. I see horses that look like they should be pulling a cart and they are considered good movers for dressage. That blows my mind…so I just don’t even go there. :lol:[/QUOTE]

The intricacies of ‘good movers’ certain disciplines are lost on me as well. I can appreciate a nice H/J round when I see one though. I liked this video, it came up as suggested in one of the videos you linked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR0h2l---r4

[Willesdon]

Everyone uses phrases and terms that are totally misunderstood and/or reinterpreted by other people and it is especially the case in the horse world. So here is a link to a pony that I think, with my British eyes, is a ‘daisy cutter’.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqgOvCWCayQ

The pony isn’t lazy and has plenty of activity in the hock and shoulder but the knee action is low and there is a slight flick of the hoof.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8824373]
The intricacies of ‘good movers’ certain disciplines are lost on me as well. I can appreciate a nice H/J round when I see one though. I liked this video, it came up as suggested in one of the videos you linked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR0h2l---r4[/QUOTE]

That’s a nice canter on that horse. nice round with some areas that could be evened out…although it’s a better round than I can put in.

This horse is interesting…moves across the ground with very little lift, but still has some knee action. Depending on type of shoes, that could be addressed or this may be as good as it gets. won’t comment on the jumping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIzb4L2LU0c

I’ll take this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKHbqtpsNwU

[ace]

Back to the OP :lol: - I agree with other posters that said he looks a bit foot sore. I’d be tempted to put front shoes on him and see if he improves - if not, then you can look at the shoulders.

I like him!

[pony_grandma]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8824423]
I’ll take this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKHbqtpsNwU[/QUOTE]

Nice, lovely soft movement on the flat. But the jumping, cover my eyes! He dives over the fences, not through his body, and lands so hard. And so close. What ammie wants to get pitched on their landings like that? And that horse is going to end up with front end problems. No thanks H/J land.

[DoubleTwistedWire]

Crownpoint always used to get mentioned in posts about fabulous movers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7Bdh73qPA Pretty much the hunter ideal, that.

[doublesstable]

I would take it the OP is asking if their new TB is a “Daisy Cutter” because that is a term coined for a nice way of going Hunter horse that will be competitive.

I am a Hunter land lover and for over 35 years have been a part of the sport in one way or another here in the USA… yes it has changed over those years because of the imported WB’s from Europe starting in the late 1990’s. Before that mostly was the TB and many were OTTBs. There were still many great TB movers and many “Daisy Cutters” with a big sweeping stride keeping the feet close to the ground (as to cut the daisies)

With the addition of the WB to Hunter Land they brought in many larger horses (less refinement) with a bit more “loft and suspension” than that of the typical TB.

I feel both are still “Daisy Cutters” but feel the term has really lost traction and most use the term “Hack winner” today.

And my most favorite Hack winner and Hunter horse is Rumba… besides my own horses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaKaLwvIOCg

So OP if you are looking for a direction of having a competitive horse; Rumba is an excellent example of a horse that wins in Hunter Land.

I posted a few videos in my other post of some horses that also are very successful in Hunter Land too.

Yes it’s nice to have a lovely moving Hunter… but a big part is relaxation, balance, rhythm, consistency and attitude. Even an okay mover that possesses all of those trait, nails every distance with a happy attitude will do very well in Hunter Land.

Your TB is cute and looks like with some consistency and shoeing work etc will be a very fun horse for you to enjoy…

[Bristol_Bay]

[QUOTE=pony grandma;8824705]
Nice, lovely soft movement on the flat. But the jumping, cover my eyes! He dives over the fences, not through his body, and lands so hard. And so close. What ammie wants to get pitched on their landings like that? And that horse is going to end up with front end problems. No thanks H/J land.[/QUOTE]

Please accept this FWIW, coming from a relatively uneducated person, but that rider looks like he’s throwing his body forward in an exaggerated manner, maybe to make the horse look like he’s got more jump? It looks slightly ridiculous to me. It’s not a grand prix.

[Midge]

Hunters are supposed to have long, low, efficient movement across the ground, hence the term daisy cutter. Suspension is not a part of that equation. So that big moving horse with flat knees and a lot of suspension is still a good mover but is not what is preferred for a hunter.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=Midge;8825247]
Hunters are supposed to have long, low, efficient movement across the ground, hence the term daisy cutter. Suspension is not a part of that equation. So that big moving horse with flat knees and a lot of suspension is still a good mover but is not what is preferred for a hunter.[/QUOTE]

Interesting comment.

I think you can still have a long and low movement with more reach and float (which I think is suspension of movement) and be a top Hunter horse.

In today’s Hunter ring (at least in my neck of the woods) in the hack class the horse that has the long and low but a reach and float - a bit of (suspension) will win every time over the horse that is only long and low.

But I think you don’t want too much suspension for a Hunter…