is this really linda parelli?

[sdlbredfan]

Exactamundo! Tkhawk is absolutely right!

[QUOTE=tkhawk;4743203]
Hot sensitive horses you don’t match energy. You remain calm and dial them a few notches down. Once you get the hang of it, it is actually fun. Dial up or down your energy and you can see the shift in the horse-under saddle or just doing round pen works. No need for what LP did.

That is the fun of riding a sensitive horse, you relax and don’t have to do a lot of work. If they blow up, you become calmer and more centered in yourself, instead of being caught up in their energy and get them through it. The only time you wan’t to throw energy at a wound up horse, is if you wan’t to wind it up even further. This does happen -eg like the halter Arab classes, where the crazy look is in vogue. But even they know what they are doing. I thought this was common knowledge for folks who deal with hot horses.

See I have had a bad day myself. I started as an adult and wen’t through fear and when I started with horses, I still had a bad temper. Then I got my mare and she had a worse temper than me!:winkgrin: One of us had to learn to be the calm one and it was not going to be her and as I learned to be calm and work from that quite space within, she clamed down too. If someone took a video of that bad day, I would be ashamed of myself. But in this case, they are showing it to be an example of how things are supposed to be and as a how to manual for beginners to train horses![/QUOTE]

If only LP could take a few lessons from you, there might be hope that she would someday understand how to communicate with a horse. Looking for pigs flying…as am sure it will be on such a day she ever might admit that maybe she does not know it all, and should actually learn something.

[tkhawk]

Nah I am just ok. I used to ride in a place where they used to exercise endurance arabs. Now those riders-nothing like exercising fit horses that are fit enough to run a 50 or even a 100 mi race. The horses know the trails, done it a gazillion times and are bored and fit too! At that time I was having issues with my mare . They could be riding a fit hyper horse that may be misbeheaving and yet, they just laugh, are calm and are giving me directions at the same time they are containing their horses. These are just nameless, faceless folks.

That is why I wonder about the PPs-how on earth did they become so big, when there are so many great horsemen out there? I do feel about all the beginners though.

[dizzywriter]

@Alagirl;4743168

I think it’s conterminated, grab a fresh one from the cooler! :yes:

Conterminated sounds like it’s way overdone. That must be why the bubbles are stale.

[sdlbredfan]

Did anybody make popcorn or grown-up beverages? The only way that PP video would be tolerable is having distractions such as those. A problem with that approach is, of course, that anyone who actually knows how to handle horses would lose appetite, in watching that.

[Beverley]

@egontoast;4742920

Is this really Pat and Linda?

http://www.youtube.com/user/romeetta#p/u

That is a hoot. Love the horse.

[jumpymeister]

To the person that asked about a phase 4 interrupt…

The phases - increasing amounts of pressure to motivate the horse to yeild to pressure… the idea being to use as little pressure as possible, but as much as necessary. When you teach a horse something new, you go through the phases with regular timing, for example, p1 for 2 seconds, p2 for 2 seconds, etc. Once the horse has learned and understands the task being asked of him, the timing changes in order to get softer and lighter responses. Say your horse doesn’t respond to the pressure until p3, and you want him to respond softly at p1, you start staying longer at p1, and move quicker thorugh the other phases. That way, it is nice and comfortable and easy to move off p1, and gets uncomfortable very quickly if they don’t respond.

Phase one is touch hair, 2 touch down to the skin, 3 press to the muscle, 4 feel like you are pressing all the way to bone. Another way they teach it, is suggest (1), ask (2), tell (3), promise (4).

The analogy I have heard them use for a p4 interrupt is: its like someone that’s having some sort of hysterical meltdown and you just need to snap them out of it, so you slap them in the face, it sort of shocks them out of it and then they say “thanks, I needed that.”

So what they will do if a horse has just absolutely panicked and has lost all awareness of it’s handler, is go directly to that phase 4 - a clunk with the snap, firm use of the carrot stick or lead rope, to “snap the horse out of it” in order to get its focus back on its handler. I was taught that it’s a one time use sort of thing. Quick phase 4, get the horse’s attention, then pretend it never happened, and go back to whatever you were doing with the more methodical use of the phases.

It’s been very effective for me in extreme situations, but again, I was taught one time use of the technique…

[CoolMeadows]

@jumpymeister;4743391

Phase one is touch hair, 2 touch down to the skin, 3 press to the muscle, 4 feel like you are pressing all the way to bone. Another way they teach it, is suggest (1), ask (2), tell (3), promise (4).

See, this is where that educational video confused me. I thought it was 1: suggest, 2: ask, 3: tell, and 4: beat in face. My bad.

[danceronice]

THAT would make sense from a conditioning perspective–if you time a single sharp negative reinforcement it ought to work. They know “OH do that, get smacked, better listen.”

That ain’t what LP is doing on that video.

[Arathita]

[QUOTE=Wendyg;4742434]
I understand that many people are upset about this video but it is taken out of the original context for which it is intended. The person who posted this did it unlawfully. The level 1 pack is fully copywrited and a small piece of it, taken out of context, should not be used to bash this wonderful program. Level 1 is about saftey. This horse was becoming nervous about his surroundings and was ignoring the humans around him. He was barging into the personal space of the handler. Linda needed to nip this behavior in the bud before it got too extreme. If she was handeling this horse from the beginning she would have put out these sparks earlier and she would have had to do less. This was not the case here. The horse was being handled by a level 1 student who was in the process of learning saftey techniques and did not have to knowledge nessassary at this time to do less sooner. This horse did not get far enough in the program at this point to defer to his handler as a leader. He was letting his fear of his surroundings rule his brain. Sometimes it takes a lot to override this behavior so that they can forget about their surroundings and focus on you so that you can give them direction and they can think clearly enough to follow it. [/QUOTE]

i do not understand then why this horse’s education occured in on open space with other horses and people. Do you think that yanking on his face in this surroundings brought his focus to Linda? Do you think he understood this lesson? I don’t. If you do, please explain why you think this video represents good training.

@Wendyg;4742434

She needed to match his energy and then some to get his attention off of what was frightening him. Teaching a horse to back up from a distance could save your life a sometime when all they want to do is run and barge into your space run you over or drag you. Please don’t bash this program with out the proper research. It’s just not fair. As this horse got further into the program he became more confident and a better follower as his handler became a better leader for his horse. I learned a lot from this segment in the level 1 pack and I’m glad it was not removed. I am sorry for the grief it has caused Linda at this point though.

Yanking on a horses face is not “matching the energy and then some”. I can yell at you and smack you around but if you do not understand what I am telling you it is useless. Horses are prey animals and if they do not trust the handler and feel like there is something to worry about, it behooves them to look out for themselves. Which is what this horse is doing. This is bad training. If this represents the program, then the program espouses bad training. If you believe this training is correct, then I would call you a bad trainer.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Wendyg;4742434]
I understand that many people are upset about this video but it is taken out of the original context for which it is intended. The person who posted this did it unlawfully. [/QUOTE] :lol: For sure I’m imagining that the Parelli machine will be REALLY irritated by that! Heck, when did they EVER do anything that wasn’t paid for!?

Now as a general comment before I further pick your post to pieces, I must point out that you’ve clearly been sold not only their training but also the concept and idea that it’s marvellous. It’s not! I can only presume that you’ve not really had a great deal to do with training horses or producing them for something significant.

The level 1 pack is fully copywrited and a small piece of it, taken out of context, should not be used to bash this wonderful program.
I call what I see. I’ve personally seen other stuff that’s “their” stuff and I happily and eagerly and easily bash that too.

Level 1 is about saftey.
Glad you told me, I’d never have guessed!! (NOTE: I train horses!)

This horse was becoming nervous about his surroundings and was ignoring the humans around him.
What were you watching? He wasn’t. He was standing quietly but being aware of what’s going on.

Clue: He did that because…

He’s a horse!
He wasn’t getting anything at all from the humans around him!

He was barging into the personal space of the handler.
He wasn’t! The dozey cow said right at the start she was going to make the horse go back. It was standing nice and quiet and wasn’t doing a thing wrong!

Linda needed to nip this behavior in the bud before it got too extreme.
Clearly Linda had a need to impress someone and to demonstrate an extreme response to nothing!

If she was handeling this horse from the beginning she would have put out these sparks earlier and she would have had to do less.
Bollocks! And if I win the lottery I’d be a millionaire. But do please tell me precisely what she’s ever trained that has done anything generally and genuinely recognised as being significant with a horse.

The horse was being handled by a level 1 student who was in the process of learning saftey techniques and did not have to knowledge nessassary at this time to do less sooner.
The thing is there’s a lot of Parelli students who don’t have the necessary knowledge to handle horses. That’s how comes they get suckered in by those sort!

This horse did not get far enough in the program at this point to defer to his handler as a leader.
One thing I’ve learnt over the decades of GENUINELY training horses. You want to train a horse then you have to understand it and you treat it with respect and are calm and confident and consistent. ALWAYS!

He was letting his fear of his surroundings rule his brain.
He wasn’t! I’m thinking you should get out more and see some real horses that have been spoilt by idiots who scare the crap out of them and get them totally confused.

Sometimes it takes a lot to override this behavior so that they can forget about their surroundings and focus on you so that you can give them direction and they can think clearly enough to follow it.
It does and I use a technique that’s very effective when that’s required. In the video though that isn’t what happened. The horse was just being irritated by some daft bitch saying “wiggle, giggle, clunk, giggle, wiggle, clunk, giggle”

She needed to match his energy and then some to get his attention off of what was frightening him. Teaching a horse to back up from a distance could save your life a sometime when all they want to do is run and barge into your space run you over or drag you.
I find shouting and demanding with my voice and positioning using body language altogether much more effective but then I do often have to train horses that are genuinely totally disrespectful of people. Moving into a stable with a horse that’s intent on heading out over the top of you can indeed be a little tricky and that’s why most conventional trainers develop the technique of standing tall, holding their arms forward as they move forward and shouting BACK! If they scream BACK like a banshee then trust me, it works and you don’t have to bother trying to attach a length of rope and smacking it under the chin!

Please don’t bash this program with out the proper research.
Well I consider myself qualified and able to bash what they do. Many others who have contributed to this posting also have considerable experience and knowledge and call what they see.

It’s just not fair.
They’ve set themselves up for a fall. Tough!

As this horse got further into the program he became more confident and a better follower as his handler became a better leader for his horse.
Like I said, the horse was a saint already!.

Parelli is marketed at novices and in my opinion the ONLY thing it does well is raise their confidence. Nothing to do with training the horse… EVERYTHING to do with training people.

I learned a lot from this segment in the level 1 pack and I’m glad it was not removed.
Glad to hear that but I would suggest seriously that you might well want to broaden your horizon. Why limit yourself to something that just isn’t that good?

I am sorry for the grief it has caused Linda at this point though.
I wouldn’t personally lose any sleep. After all she’s made a lot of money to date from folks who willingly and eagerly believe she has a clue. If the bubble bursts she’s done a lot better than I ever imagined was possible when I first saw what they were selling.

[gloriginger]

I wonder what Linda would have done if this horse truly was being disrespectful, as in rearing, turning to double barrel at her, snorting, head shaking…

I can only imagine the video that would have unfolded after one wiggle, wiggle, clunk…

[Seal_Harbor]

You go Thomas!! Well said.

[DLee]

[QUOTE=jumpymeister;4743391]
To the person that asked about a phase 4 interrupt…

The phases - increasing amounts of pressure to motivate the horse to yeild to pressure… the idea being to use as little pressure as possible, but as much as necessary. When you teach a horse something new, you go through the phases with regular timing, for example, p1 for 2 seconds, p2 for 2 seconds, etc. Once the horse has learned and understands the task being asked of him, the timing changes in order to get softer and lighter responses. Say your horse doesn’t respond to the pressure until p3, and you want him to respond softly at p1, you start staying longer at p1, and move quicker thorugh the other phases. That way, it is nice and comfortable and easy to move off p1, and gets uncomfortable very quickly if they don’t respond.

Phase one is touch hair, 2 touch down to the skin, 3 press to the muscle, 4 feel like you are pressing all the way to bone. Another way they teach it, is suggest (1), ask (2), tell (3), promise (4).

The analogy I have heard them use for a p4 interrupt is: its like someone that’s having some sort of hysterical meltdown and you just need to snap them out of it, so you slap them in the face, it sort of shocks them out of it and then they say “thanks, I needed that.”

So what they will do if a horse has just absolutely panicked and has lost all awareness of it’s handler, is go directly to that phase 4 - a clunk with the snap, firm use of the carrot stick or lead rope, to “snap the horse out of it” in order to get its focus back on its handler. I was taught that it’s a one time use sort of thing. Quick phase 4, get the horse’s attention, then pretend it never happened, and go back to whatever you were doing with the more methodical use of the phases.

It’s been very effective for me in extreme situations, but again, I was taught one time use of the technique…[/QUOTE]

Exactly. The key is the horse has to KNOW what you are asking for ahead of time. It has to make sense to him.

[flea]

That “4 step” thing is pretty much basic horsemanship. Ask softly then increase pressure til you get the correct response. As soon as you get the correct response, or any indication of it, you release. I am not a “trainer”, just work with my own horses so I have something pleasant to ride, but I picked up on that 40 years ago. The trick is in the timing and helping the horse to understand what it is you want right? He tries several answers, when he answers correctly release. Not a PP invention but seems like they must make poor use of that technique.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Personally, I disagree with escalating the force of the aids. Doing so feels a lot like picking a fight - at least with most of the horses I know.

I just keeping asking the same way, until I get what I asked for. It seems like it takes a long time, but I timed it once and the longest I ever had to keep asking was forty-five seconds. And I don’t mind admitting I got the idea from Mark Rashid - see, I’m not anti-NH.

I also get a chuckle out of the idea of “matching the horse’s energy level”. My mama used a similar technique on reluctant children, but she called it, “I’ll make you more scared of me than you are of [whatever].” It worked pretty well, too, until we got big enough to outrun her.:lol: So I can’t imagine it’d be all that succesful with the truly unwilling horse.

[flea]

I am talking subtle increases. Say when I first started teaching horse to move her hip over at my pressure, I just put my heel back…of course, nothing happened… I had to apply some pressure til she decided to move. Otherwise she just wonders why my leg is back but no biggie to her. Now, all I have to do is move my leg back, really no pressure needed. This type of thing.

[Grataan]

[QUOTE=DressageGeek “Ribbon Ho”;4743076]
You know, I don’t know how I managed to keep my horse for 12 years without going through the Parelli program to make sure we were doing it right.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps Ted has Pepperonied YOU? I mean, what else is he supposed to do while he waits for you to turn in his law school applications?

[Guilherme]

BRAVO ZULU, Thomas!!! (That’s “well done’”)

Now I suggest you’ve earned Alpha Delta SEVEN EIGHT, which translates for the RN as “Splice the Mainbrace.”

Enjoy!!!

G.

[Nojacketrequired]

firm use of the carrot stick

'nough said.

NJR

[Summit_Springs_Farm]

[QUOTE=jn1193;4731910]
I wasn’t going to get involved with this, and I am NOT going to defend Linda Parelli here. I am not a Parelli-ite by the stretch of anyone’s imagination.

BUT… some of these posts are a classic case of COTH posters making comments about a situation in isolation from a video several years old without knowing the full story of this horse.

I do.

I know this horse and his owner very well. The owner rescued this horse from a killer pen. He was already blind in the one eye and was a basket case - terrified, skinny, wormy, beaten and about to be shipped to his death. After years of patience and love, he is quiet and rideable. He is fat and shiny (as anyone CAN see in the video.) He is happy in his home. He has buddies. He is well taken care of in a home for life with big fields of grass. He is loved. He is cherished. And HE loves HIS life.

Believe it.

Whatever criticism you have of LP’s methods, this owner was trying to help his horse by getting training for him. Many, many people would have left him in the killer pen, but this owner saw something in the horse and gave him a wonderful life.

I’ll put MY name, and MY professional reputation to my statements about this horse and this owner.

Jane Nordstrom[/QUOTE]

I don’t really care who has the horse or where the horse came from, nor do I think it is relative, to the treatment he received in the video!

It was much longer than 4 minutes as I could see the changes in the sun, so it must have gone on for quiet a while.

No horse should be handled like this for ANY reason.

Why would anyone think its OK? Just because the horse was on his way to the kill pen, what? this is better treatment of the horse than killing him?

I would never allow anyone to treat my imported Hanoverian, which is a extremely nice horse like that.

Nor would I allow anyone to treat my OTTB mare , that I love dearly, like that.

In fact a little story about NH, I had a NH guy come to “work” with my OTTB mare on ground manors because when she came OOT she had little manors.

He came and immediately started this type on NONSENSE with her, she freaked out and I told him “ENOUGH” and said he could leave my farm.

He said she was dangerous and crazy etc. I said “No That would be YOU!”mad:

Now after 2 years of handling her appropriately she is the favorite in the barn of the guys that care for our horses, and she’s a mare!

In fact JN’s post made me reply outherwise I was so appauled by the video I couldn’t even think about it.

There is no place in horsemanship for this kind of behavior.