Correct…Ace doesn’t work at all once they are excited…but they also blow through it very quickly too. Does it do something…of course. My point was just on that amount it isn’t like the horses will act or feel drugged. And if they are a real fruit loop…they still will be.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8351008]
Correct…Ace doesn’t work at all once they are excited…but they also blow through it very quickly too. Does it do something…of course. My point was just on that amount it isn’t like the horses will act or feel drugged. And if they are a real fruit loop…they still will be.[/QUOTE]
Agreed!
Let me start with I have only hunted one and a half seasons with a farmer pack and twice in 3rd field with a recognized.
The first couple of times I hunted Finnegan he got a little Ace. I had only cubbed once before on another horse about 10 years before. So I had no hunt experience and neither did he.
The one time I let a junior hunt him he got a little Ace. He was giving the junior a hard time in the trailer area waiting for the hunt to start but she was dealing with it well. One of the other junior’s mom was having a meltdown. This was early in his first season.
For him once you got through the first 20 minutes he is reasonable. I did not need to Ace for the rest of the season or any the next season.
[QUOTE=Hunter’s Rest;8350054]
- Your original question, you realize refers to ‘…prep for SHOW hunters …’ (not field hunters)
that said - I’ve hunted 45 years and would say 1 in 10 tranq’ing horses is a little on the high side but, yes, some people do it.
Some horses need a little to begin their career (or season) with and wean off.
Some horses develop a need for it (I had a horse who was a perfect field hunter until he rose the ranks eventing and he became an orangatang, and he ended up needing it, every time out.)
Some horses need it to prevent EIPH and tying up.
Some horses never need it.
and - I’ve ridden horses of every ^^ variety. You can’t really can’t ‘tell’ (except that the ones who sincerely need it behave!)
- If giving a horse a small amount of a benign substance makes his day easier, and, therefore, the rider’s day easier, and, therefore, an overall positive, good experience, then by all means do it.
I don’t think it is a muscle relaxer. My vet said hte reason it works on my horse with EIPH tendency is b/c it is a blood pressure reducer. That’s why it’d work for tying up.[/QUOTE]
Thank you.
No disrespect intended but the IMO the majority of people commenting seem to have very limited experience in the “grand scheme” of things.
The hunts I’m familiar with always have somebody that starts each new season with a fresh bottle of Ace and everybody’s welcome to take a hit off of it any time they feel the need. As previously mentioned, it’s usually used by people that don’t work with their horses in the off season to be confident in their ability to handle those early hunt crow hops.
For those of you the use Ace under vet supervision; has your vet ever mentioned that Ace can sometimes cause geldings to drop and not be able to pull it back in? My vet said this but I’ve never heard it anywhere else so I wondered if it was just her excuse to use more expensive drugs when she sedated horses.
[QUOTE=flyingchange;8349461]
Ace makes it possible for people who cannot ride (aka - most people out fox hunting) to think they can.[/QUOTE]
A bit of nonsense and comes off a bit self serving. Most of the people I have hunted with in SE PA, MD, NoVa can hold their own with anyone. And yes one of their horses may start out with a touch of Ace. As have some of mine. Considering I had a jump jock’s license it is safe to say that I can ride a little bit. Ace or no Ace.
“limp Dk” reaction is extremely rare. I have used Ace extensively for many different needs. On colts and geldings for years never experienced any “side affects”.
The opposite can happen also, which can be quite serious. But the chances are less than 1 in 10,0000. Not a a made up number, based on years of keeping stats.
[QUOTE=littlebaypony;8351884]
The hunts I’m familiar with always have somebody that starts each new season with a fresh bottle of Ace and everybody’s welcome to take a hit off of it any time they feel the need. As previously mentioned, it’s usually used by people that don’t work with their horses in the off season to be confident in their ability to handle those early hunt crow hops.
For those of you the use Ace under vet supervision; has your vet ever mentioned that Ace can sometimes cause geldings to drop and not be able to pull it back in? My vet said this but I’ve never heard it anywhere else so I wondered if it was just her excuse to use more expensive drugs when she sedated horses.[/QUOTE]
“limp Dk” reaction is extremely rare. I have used Ace extensively for many different needs. On colts and geldings for years never experienced any “side affects”.
The opposite can happen also, which can be quite serious. But the chances are less than 1 in 10,0000. Not a a made up number, based on years of keeping stats.
[QUOTE=flyingchange;8349461]
Ace makes it possible for people who cannot ride (aka - most people out fox hunting) to think they can.[/QUOTE]
Wow, that’s quite a generalization.
I see some very fine riding out in the hunt field over all kinds of terrain! A cc of Ace will not make it seem like people can ride. There’s a lot more to it than that!
Riding a horse that has been given a small touch of ace is vastly preferable (IMHO) to jumping a horse that has been dosed with Carolina Gold, IV magnesium or six tubes of Perfect Prep.
[QUOTE=Posting Trot;8349747]
How does Ace help with tying up? Is Ace a muscle relaxant (showing that I know nothing about what it is, although I do have a sense of why people use it)?[/QUOTE]
Ace is not a muscle relaxant it is basically an anti-anxiety medication.
In relation to “trying up” “colicing” the first “go to” is Banamine. IV is better than paste. But if that is not available Ace is a good choice also. As is Xylazine aka, Rompun. This is not my “advice” but that of many vets I have worked with.
Xylazine is a better choice than Ace. It can work because it helps the horse “relax” from the “nervous tension” caused by the “pain” it is experiencing, enduring.
Getting the horse to “relax” take its mind off off things helps getting “things” moving again.
IMO anybody that has horses and does not have easy access to a 24 hour vet should have the above in their meds cabinet and be comfortable using in an emergency.
[QUOTE=Hunter’s Rest;8350054]
- Your original question, you realize refers to ‘…prep for SHOW hunters …’ (not field hunters)
that said - I’ve hunted 45 years and would say 1 in 10 tranq’ing horses is a little on the high side but, yes, some people do it.
.[/QUOTE]
I just reread this. As I pointed out, the original quote was specifically for prepping field hunters.
Your #2. Original poster specified that 1 in 10 field hunters was NOT on Ace. I agree that 1 in 10 chemically enhanced would be high, but 9 in 10 is way out of line.
RugBug chastised me for twisting words, so here’s more of the original post:
“I have been involved with fox hunters on and off my whole life. I would say roughly 1in 10 do not give a couple cc of Ace when they hunt. That then carried over into the show ring. Many/most show hunters in the 60s (as far back as I can knowingly go) showed on a cc of Ace. Until Sallie Sexton made it her mission to get rid of Ace. A simple, not dangerous drug. So, the trainers looked for untestables. Beginning with reserpine. For which there was a massive roundup of offenders in the mid 70s.”
[QUOTE=Madeline;8351925]
I just reread this. As I pointed out, the original quote was specifically for prepping field hunters.
Your #2. Original poster specified that 1 in 10 field hunters was NOT on Ace. I agree that 1 in 10 chemically enhanced would be high, but 9 in 10 is way out of line.
RugBug chastised me for twisting words, so here’s more of the original post:
“I have been involved with fox hunters on and off my whole life. I would say roughly 1in 10 do not give a couple cc of Ace when they hunt. That then carried over into the show ring. Many/most show hunters in the 60s (as far back as I can knowingly go) showed on a cc of Ace. Until Sallie Sexton made it her mission to get rid of Ace. A simple, not dangerous drug. So, the trainers looked for untestables. Beginning with reserpine. For which there was a massive roundup of offenders in the mid 70s.”[/QUOTE]
I said on the other thread what KateDB said here which was that fox hunters are not competing for money or points. Fox hunting is an activity and you will see every imaginable combination of bits and breed of horse out there having a fun time. A touch of ace can turn the $2000 horse into a $15,000 reliable horse for the hunt. 
The author of the thread you quoted here respectfully piped in over there that her point was that show ring riders learned the benefit of ace from their fox hunting brethren. I am thankful that showing on the rated circuit is nothing that interest me, at all. From all I’ve read it seems the judging needs to change a bit to honor the fizzy horse when appropriate. I’d be damned before I wound enter a class where the current trio of trouble were entered. Vote with your hooves members.
OTOH, for me, a 1/2cc of ace keeps the fizzy away which is perfect when the ground is frozen, the north wind is spitting snow and we are headed down a long hill with the hounds in full cry. I get enough AARP membership requests so I honor my age in all my horse activities.
FTR, I would never, ever, ever allow someone to use my ace. If someone was injured and their insurance company learned you had provided ace, you could be in a world of hurt for providing a controlled substance outside an established vet/client relationship. It.is.not.worth.the.risk. People need to get ace from their own veterinarian.
[QUOTE=Madeline;8349597]
Thank you. That restores my faith. A little.[/QUOTE]
Why would you lose any faith over some non-competing horses receiving a single, long proven to be safe medication, responsibly prescribed by a vet prior to a very exciting activity? This seems ridiculous to me.
There is no comparison between this and the extreme over usage of medications and supplements, many experimental or even known to be dangerous, administered with no veterinary involvement, all given in an attempt to cheat in a competition situation.
There are some horses that fox hunt that occasionally (for various reasons) benefit from the administration of a small dose of Acepromazine. This is a non competitive situation–there’s no cheating going on here. The medication we are discussing, Acepromazine, has a long history as a mild and safe tranquilizer for horses–there is no experimentation going on and no administration of bizarre/dangerous combinations of “untestable” substances. In all of the cases that I am aware of, people who use Acepromazine on their fox hunters are giving the medication as legally and responsibly prescribed by a licensed and reputable veterinarian–this isn’t some secret cheating cocktail of weird drugs (some labelled as supplements) sold by a sleazy vet who will do or sell anything to help trainers who are desperate to win.
I cannot understand how anyone could compare the two situations. I am extremely concerned about horse welfare, and giving hunt horses a cc of Acepromazine prior to a hunt is NOT an ethical or horse welfare issue. Giving a show horse 9 tubes of calming paste, GABA, Robaxin, Dexamethasone, Banamine, and IV Mag in an effort to cheat to win ribbons, and repeating that formula or some similar complicated experimental formula over and over with horses occasionally dropping dead or collapsing or foundering…now that’s both an ethical issue and a horse welfare issue.
[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8352695]
Why would you lose any faith over some non-competing horses receiving a single, long proven to be safe medication, responsibly prescribed by a vet prior to a very exciting activity? This seems ridiculous to me.
There is no comparison between this and the extreme over usage of medications and supplements, many experimental or even known to be dangerous, administered with no veterinary involvement, all given in an attempt to cheat in a competition situation.
There are some horses that fox hunt that occasionally (for various reasons) benefit from the administration of a small dose of Acepromazine. This is a non competitive situation–there’s no cheating going on here. The medication we are discussing, Acepromazine, has a long history as a mild and safe tranquilizer for horses–there is no experimentation going on and no administration of bizarre/dangerous combinations of “untestable” substances. In all of the cases that I am aware of, people who use Acepromazine on their fox hunters are giving the medication as legally and responsibly prescribed by a licensed and reputable veterinarian–this isn’t some secret cheating cocktail of weird drugs (some labelled as supplements) sold by a sleazy vet who will do or sell anything to help trainers who are desperate to win.
I cannot understand how anyone could compare the two situations. I am extremely concerned about horse welfare, and giving hunt horses a cc of Acepromazine prior to a hunt is NOT an ethical or horse welfare issue. Giving a show horse 9 tubes of calming paste, GABA, Robaxin, Dexamethasone, Banamine, and IV Mag in an effort to cheat to win ribbons, and repeating that formula or some similar complicated experimental formula over and over with horses occasionally dropping dead or collapsing or foundering…now that’s both an ethical issue and a horse welfare issue.[/QUOTE]
Amen!
[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8352695]
Why would you lose any faith over some non-competing horses receiving a single, long proven to be safe medication, responsibly prescribed by a vet prior to a very exciting activity? This seems ridiculous to me.
There is no comparison between this and the extreme over usage of medications and supplements, many experimental or even known to be dangerous, administered with no veterinary involvement, all given in an attempt to cheat in a competition situation.
There are some horses that fox hunt that occasionally (for various reasons) benefit from the administration of a small dose of Acepromazine. This is a non competitive situation–there’s no cheating going on here. The medication we are discussing, Acepromazine, has a long history as a mild and safe tranquilizer for horses–there is no experimentation going on and no administration of bizarre/dangerous combinations of “untestable” substances. In all of the cases that I am aware of, people who use Acepromazine on their fox hunters are giving the medication as legally and responsibly prescribed by a licensed and reputable veterinarian–this isn’t some secret cheating cocktail of weird drugs (some labelled as supplements) sold by a sleazy vet who will do or sell anything to help trainers who are desperate to win.
I cannot understand how anyone could compare the two situations. I am extremely concerned about horse welfare, and giving hunt horses a cc of Acepromazine prior to a hunt is NOT an ethical or horse welfare issue. Giving a show horse 9 tubes of calming paste, GABA, Robaxin, Dexamethasone, Banamine, and IV Mag in an effort to cheat to win ribbons, and repeating that formula or some similar complicated experimental formula over and over with horses occasionally dropping dead or collapsing or foundering…now that’s both an ethical issue and a horse welfare issue.[/QUOTE]
The original statement on the HJ board by another poster was " I have been involved with fox hunters on and off my whole life. I would say that roughly 1 in 10 do not give a couple cc of Ace when they hunt." In this thread fox hunters have said they do not observe that statistic to be accurate in their hunt. OP said that restored her faith. Doesn’t seem like OP on this thread is against ace and was curious to learn what others observed. I could be wrong but that is how I saw it.
[QUOTE=SLW;8352943]
The original statement on the HJ board by another poster was " I have been involved with fox hunters on and off my whole life. I would say that roughly 1 in 10 do not give a couple cc of Ace when they hunt." In this thread fox hunters have said they do not observe that statistic to be accurate in their hunt. OP said that restored her faith. Doesn’t seem like OP on this thread is against ace and was curious to learn what others observed. I could be wrong but that is how I saw it.[/QUOTE]
I think BeeHoney’s point was that she wasn’t certain why, even given the hyperbolic nature of the post in HJ, faith in the world of hunting had been lost to begin with.
Her assertion is that show hunters competing on a trainer-issued cocktail of off-label drugs and supplements is an entirely different animal than a non-competing field hunter receiving a regular small dose of a well studied, oft used mild tranq for its intended purpose. Even if the truth is somewhere between “the 9 out of 10 give a couple cc’s of Ace every time out” presented in HJ and the “1 cc, situationally” that seems more commonly observed here, it’s not even remotely comparable in my book, either.
Since I AM the person who wrote this, let ME tell you that Madeline completely misrepresented the reason I wrote what I did. First, the statistic. In the hunts I have personally been involved with, that is a close to accurate ratio. I saw, gave and knew about tge Ace given. It was considered SOP on fox hunters. Yes, more at the beginning of the season, or specific hunt, but certainly more common than not.
But the larger issue I have with Madeline’s “help,” is that I was merely responding to another poster who thought that drugging show hunters was something new. I detailed my personal knowledge from the 60s on, of field hunters hunting on it, then going to horse shows on it WHEN THERE WERE NO RULES/TESTS AGAINST IT, to illustrate that it really has been a part of the show hunter culture for a very long time. She claims I was justifying my belief in things as they are. I was not. I was merely defining the “how” of it. And, I stand behind my statement, not as a criticism of fox hunting, but as its position as the predecessor to show hunters.
Well I am far from an expert but I went hilltopping once and tranqed my horse and myself and still nearly got my arms pulled out of the sockets so I am 1 for 1 or 100%.
[QUOTE=lauriep;8353782]
Since I AM the person who wrote this, let ME tell you that Madeline completely misrepresented the reason I wrote what I did. First, the statistic. In the hunts I have personally been involved with, that is a close to accurate ratio. I saw, gave and knew about tge Ace given. It was considered SOP on fox hunters. Yes, more at the beginning of the season, or specific hunt, but certainly more common than not.
But the larger issue I have with Madeline’s “help,” is that I was merely responding to another poster who thought that drugging show hunters was something new. I detailed my personal knowledge from the 60s on, of field hunters hunting on it, then going to horse shows on it WHEN THERE WERE NO RULES/TESTS AGAINST IT, to illustrate that it really has been a part of the show hunter culture for a very long time. She claims I was justifying my belief in things as they are. I was not. I was merely defining the “how” of it. And, I stand behind my statement, not as a criticism of fox hunting, but as its position as the predecessor to show hunters.[/QUOTE]
OK. This started with your statement that 90% of the people hunting used ACE. That didn’t fit with my experience at all, so I brought that “statistic” to the hunting forum. Hunters Rest, who is probably as active in the field as anyone on this list, misread your statistic that 1 in 10 was not using ACE as 1 in 10 was using Ace. She thought that, though ACE is used, that figure was too high.
Personally, I can’t see crossing rough terrain with solid fences at speed on a horse who wasn’t fully aware of his surroundings. I also agree with those who believe that if a horse needs to be drugged to do his job he’s probably in the wrong job.
If 90% of the field where you hunt are riding chemically enhanced (dehanced?) horses, you might be hunting with the wrong folk.
The level smooth terrain and loose fences of the show ring are an entirely different situation. Since drugging to improve competitive performance is specifically disallowed, drugs in the show ring become a question mainly of honesty and ethics. "Legal " drugs (those that don’t test) or illegal ones (that do)- no difference because it’s all the same breach of ethics.
[QUOTE=Madeline;8354342]
Since drugging to improve competitive performance is specifically disallowed, drugs in the show ring become a question mainly of honesty and ethics. "Legal " drugs (those that don’t test) or illegal ones (that do)- no difference because it’s all the same breach of ethics.[/QUOTE]
Actually, what I think you’re missing here is that it’s more than a breach of ethics. Many of the drugs used are simply not safe. Ace is a (relatively) safe drug that is prescribed by veterinarians who know perfectly well how it’s being used and will tell you how much to give your horse. In the show ring, because drugs are not legal, people are using a wide range of un-tested drugs that have significant health risks because they are not tested and their use is concealed.
You don’t have many hunt horses keeling over and dying because they got a cc of Ace before the first cast. Sadly, you have show horses who die because of magnesium overdoses or shots of Gaba or a combination of God-knows-what.
I am not saying that people should Ace their horses to hunt. However, it’s something they need to determine with the advice of their Vet and trainer, not because people on a bulletin board think it is/is not a good idea.
