Is this true?

[Xctrygirl]

I hate to be the one that makes the sport look bad, as I love it happily drug free on my own horse, but I worked for a barn that did serially tranq their horses. We went through bottles (plural) of Ace a season.

I’m not the one who made the decisions to tranq and I certainly “injected” the air and the dirt a few times rather than continue to give it to horses who were quiet multi season veterans that I was going to be riding. I wish I knew why they did it that much. But I don’t. Loss of face is all I can think. And we did have a couple horses who didn’t get any, so some kind souls were spared.

Jumping forward I would say that how I fixed this in the world was to let my green horse try his first outings sober, and be prepared to go in early if it upset him. It didn’t and I have the best hunt horse of my life. But I wouldn’t have minded giving him a bit orally if he’d been tense to start. I just won’t be running through bottles of it.

~Emily

[BeeHoney]

I agree that drugging show hunters is nothing new and may have some historical connection to giving hunt horses Acepromazine. BUT, for those who are trying to make a modern connection between medications in the two disciplines, it’s just not there. In the modern hunter world I would venture to say that medicating horses has gotten completely out of hand, to the point where the ideal “look” of a show hunter has become a drugged appearance, and to the point where “prep” for many show hunters is a very long list of “supplements,” “legal” meds, and untestable meds/substances. Whereas, the medication of fox hunting horses is as far as I can tell about the same as it ever was–same drug, same amounts.

I’m just not sure that the practice of giving of fox hunting horses small doses of Acepromazine has anything at all to do with the drugging scene in show hunters in the current world. The two worlds separated quite a while ago. I don’t know too many people anymore who both show and foxhunt. I think if you pulled a fox hunting rider out of the hunt field and took them into a show barn and showed them what five various show hunters receive for “prep” they would be floored.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=Madeline;8354342]
OK. This started with your statement that 90% of the people hunting used ACE. That didn’t fit with my experience at all, so I brought that “statistic” to the hunting forum. Hunters Rest, who is probably as active in the field as anyone on this list, misread your statistic that 1 in 10 was not using ACE as 1 in 10 was using Ace. She thought that, though ACE is used, that figure was too high.
Personally, I can’t see crossing rough terrain with solid fences at speed on a horse who wasn’t fully aware of his surroundings. I also agree with those who believe that if a horse needs to be drugged to do his job he’s probably in the wrong job.
If 90% of the field where you hunt are riding chemically enhanced (dehanced?) horses, you might be hunting with the wrong folk.

The level smooth terrain and loose fences of the show ring are an entirely different situation. Since drugging to improve competitive performance is specifically disallowed, drugs in the show ring become a question mainly of honesty and ethics. "Legal " drugs (those that don’t test) or illegal ones (that do)- no difference because it’s all the same breach of ethics.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think a horse who is scared is anymore aware of his surroundings than one who has had a cc of ace.
Horses aren’t particularly known for levelheadedness under fire.

[roseymare]

And a note about ace. It is a disassociative so if a horse is in tremendous pain and given ace it may react violently as the pain is then disassociated.

[BeeHoney]

[QUOTE=Madeline;8354342]

Personally, I can’t see crossing rough terrain with solid fences at speed on a horse who wasn’t fully aware of his surroundings. I also agree with those who believe that if a horse needs to be drugged to do his job he’s probably in the wrong job.
If 90% of the field where you hunt are riding chemically enhanced (dehanced?) horses, you might be hunting with the wrong folk.

The level smooth terrain and loose fences of the show ring are an entirely different situation. Since drugging to improve competitive performance is specifically disallowed, drugs in the show ring become a question mainly of honesty and ethics. "Legal " drugs (those that don’t test) or illegal ones (that do)- no difference because it’s all the same breach of ethics.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with the gist of what you are saying. Sure, I wouldn’t want to ride a horse that wasn’t aware of its surroundings over solid fences and rough country at speed. But, I’ve never seen Acepromazine, given at the doses used for hunting and with the timing used for hunting cause remotely that effect. I have never seen a drugged looking fox hunter. I’ve never heard of a fox hunter falling unless there was a darn good reason why–like a leg in a gopher hole or a patch of super slippery footing under some leaves. OP, do you know of any instances of horses falling or having accidents secondary to Acepromazine in the hunt field that you would like to share with us? In fact, can you point to ANY instances of a field hunter being harmed by a calming medication of any kind?

I was at a rated show earlier this year and watched a drugged looking horse fall down for no apparent reason while cantering slowly down a line. The pony at Devon wasn’t the first or the last horse to collapse or die at the end of a needle while getting “prepared” for the show ring. IV magnesium (untestable) is well known to cause cardiac arrest if injected too quickly. Other horses founder as a result of the dexamethasone that some people feel has a calming effect. Have you read about the side effects of the most recent popular hunter drug, GABA? Very unsafe. Other calming medications/supplements are at BEST experimental. Drugging show hunters is absolutely a horse welfare issue.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8355151]
I disagree with the gist of what you are saying. Sure, I wouldn’t want to ride a horse that wasn’t aware of its surroundings over solid fences and rough country at speed. But, I’ve never seen Acepromazine, given at the doses used for hunting and with the timing used for hunting cause remotely that effect. [/QUOTE]

I have to agree. I don’t hunt, but I have recent experience with Ace on my rehab horse. It dulled him out enough that he wasn’t over-reactive, but he could still easily get that way if something upset him. We was always very aware of what was happening…including if another horse came in the ring and especially when they started cantering. Knowing how quickly he “woke up” when necessary, I’m not sure it would be a problem. Oh, and I gave IM, because Oral did jack. So if field hunters are giving 1cc orally…I wouldn’t even think the horses are unaware of their surroundings. Maybe a few lightweights, but for the most part, they probably still have their wits about them…but may be slower to get playful, naughty

[KateDB]

There are going to be a myriad of arguments, disagreements and opinions about what is or isn’t safe to give and how much and when or not, etc. etc. etc.
I’ll go back to my statement that the biggest difference is not whether field hunters receive any chemical assistance vs. the show ring is that field hunters are not competing against each other. IT’s CHEATING to drug show horses, whether it’s testable or not, whether it’s exhibition classes or not, whether it’s a local show or an A show. Is that $.50 ribbon REALLY WORTH being dishonest towards your fellow competitor?

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=KateDB;8356458]
There are going to be a myriad of arguments, disagreements and opinions about what is or isn’t safe to give and how much and when or not, etc. etc. etc.
I’ll go back to my statement that the biggest difference is not whether field hunters receive any chemical assistance vs. the show ring is that field hunters are not competing against each other. IT’s CHEATING to drug show horses, whether it’s testable or not, whether it’s exhibition classes or not, whether it’s a local show or an A show. Is that $.50 ribbon REALLY WORTH being dishonest towards your fellow competitor?[/QUOTE]

No one is actually arguing that point. The rules are the rules. Some are just saying that it would be better to make Ace legal to show on because it’s a known substance.

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=KateDB;8356458]
There are going to be a myriad of arguments, disagreements and opinions about what is or isn’t safe to give and how much and when or not, etc. etc. etc.
I’ll go back to my statement that the biggest difference is not whether field hunters receive any chemical assistance vs. the show ring is that field hunters are not competing against each other. IT’s CHEATING to drug show horses, whether it’s testable or not, whether it’s exhibition classes or not, whether it’s a local show or an A show. Is that $.50 ribbon REALLY WORTH being dishonest towards your fellow competitor?[/QUOTE]

Apparently there are many people who think it is. Never something I understood but that’s why I foxhunt rather than compete.

[lauriep]

Again, that was NOT THE POINT of my post. It was to illustrate that using calmers IS NOTHING NEW, or unique to show hunters. That is all.

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=lauriep;8357107]
Again, that was NOT THE POINT of my post. It was to illustrate that using calmers IS NOTHING NEW, or unique to show hunters. That is all.[/QUOTE]

Who really either 1) disputes or 2) cares whether doping is new? I still maintain that any horse who needs chemical “support” to do its job on a regular basis is in the wrong job.

[lauriep]

Madeline, are you being a jerk on purpose, or does it come naturally? Because, if you went to the other thread you would SEE that I was answering a post that did, indeed, seem to think this was a new problem.

Now, I am done with you and this thread, as I have given a clear explanation twice, but you want to keep dragging it out. Have fun with that.

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=lauriep;8360996]
Madeline, are you being a jerk on purpose, or does it come naturally? Because, if you went to the other thread you would SEE that I was answering a post that did, indeed, seem to think this was a new problem.

Now, I am done with you and this thread, as I have given a clear explanation twice, but you want to keep dragging it out. Have fun with that.[/QUOTE]

It comes naturally. Just ask anyone.

[The_Anonymous_Foxhun]

[QUOTE=flyingchange;8349461]
Ace makes it possible for people who cannot ride (aka - most people out fox hunting) to think they can.[/QUOTE]

flyingchange, which clubs do you hunt with?

[flyingchange]

[QUOTE=The Anonymous Foxhunter;8361925]
flyingchange, which clubs do you hunt with?[/QUOTE]

A few…

[The_Anonymous_Foxhun]

[QUOTE=flyingchange;8364657]
A few…[/QUOTE]

I asked which clubs, not how many

[Beverley]

BeeHoney wrote: “BUT, for those who are trying to make a modern connection between medications in the two disciplines, it’s just not there.”

I can give you a circuitous connection. Decades ago, when the AHSA started testing for drugs, we (where I was riding at the time) came into possession of a former national working hunter champion. He won a lot on drugs, obviously. We took a couple of years, starting from scratch, patiently reschooled him, and he did hunt and do hunter trials drug free.

Personally I’m not a fan of using drugs to ride a horse for anything. I’ve started 10 horses at hunting, one of those clearly couldn’t cope after the third time out so he found another job. The rest took to it like ducks to water, maybe sometimes some anxiety but nothing that didn’t respond to basic aids. I know folks who have successfully hunted on a little bit of ace for decades, without issue. OTOH I did see a horrible show ring wreck which I suspect would not have happened had the horse not had an injection earlier in the day.

I can also recall decades ago, a few folks insisting that their horses be injected before hunting. The barn manager, who hauled the horses to the meet, made a big show of pretending to administer ace. Owners, seeing horses thusly treated, mounted in a relaxed frame of mind. And being relaxed, the horses were relaxed, and all had a fine time.

[BeeHoney]

[QUOTE=Madeline;8360968]
I still maintain that any horse who needs chemical “support” to do its job on a regular basis is in the wrong job.[/QUOTE]

Might I ask why? Are you concerned about horse welfare? If you have a moral opposition to the use of medications in horses, might I ask what your rationale is? If you have a safety or horse welfare concern, I would be very interested to hear the basis of that concern.

Frankly, as many posts on this thread points out, there are very few hunt horses that “need” Acepromazine. Most horses that receive it would most likely hunt very similarly, possibly be just be a little more annoying at times. Along the same vein, if a horse can’t mentally tolerate hunting, that’s not something Acepromazine can fix.

[Madeline]

@BeeHoney;8367051

Might I ask why? Are you concerned about horse welfare? If you have a moral opposition to the use of medications in horses, might I ask what your rationale is? If you have a safety or horse welfare concern, I would be very interested to hear the basis of that concern.

It’s a moral objection. I have no problem with drugs, even tranqs, when used in medically appropriate cases. To use drugs to win a prize or because the rider hasn’t got the time and/or the skill to train a horse to do his job without chemical “support” seems just wrong to me.

As I pointed out earlier, I don’t think safety is that much of a concern with loose rails on perfectly groomed terrain, but if I’m jumping solid fences and covering rough terrain at speed, I want my horse to have all his brain cells engaged.

All in all, this is probably my problem more than yours, as I seem to be in a shrinking minority.

[Equibrit]

[QUOTE=flyingchange;8349461]
Ace makes it possible for people who cannot ride (aka - most people out fox hunting) to think they can.[/QUOTE]

And 9 times out of 10 they end up getting hurt.

@BeeHoney;8367051

Along the same vein, if a horse can’t mentally tolerate hunting, that’s not something Acepromazine can fix.

Why do people use it then ?

If a horse is excited, it will likely only last the first run and he’ll be calmed down. If not, he shouldn’t be out there, and neither should the person who cannot ride him.