My observations in the hunt field are that the people who can’t ride aren’t really helped by acing their horses.
I guess I’m saving my moral outrage for people who send their “beloved” horses to kill auctions, people who neglect their animals, and Big Lick Walking Horses. I also save a good dose of outrage for people who ride horses in ill fitting saddles and then punish them for misbehaving.
I’m not particularly outraged outraged over a bit of Ace.
So, I guess everyone has their tipping point.
I’m with Bogie on this one, it seems terribly ridiculous to waste any moral outrage on this topic.
Madeline, your points don’t make sense to me. Foxhunters are not giving medication to win prizes and neither are they using it because they lack the time or skill to train their horses properly. Also, the safety concern is purely theoretical–I’ve never heard of a hunt horse having an accident or health issue secondary to Acepromazine. If you have heard of such an accident, please do share it with us. (However, there are many instances of show horses coming to harm secondary to calming medications.)
Equibrit, you asked why people use Acepromazine. I can give you an example. My previous hunt horse received 1/2 cc of Acepromazine per a veterinarian’s instructions prior to getting on the trailer to go to a meet, otherwise she would paw somewhat aggressively, and if you’ve ever seen a trailer mat pawed by a draft cross with borium on her shoes it’s not pretty. Interestingly, she would only paw when we were on our way to a meet, never when we were heading out for a trail ride or a lesson. I suppose according to some I should have sent her off to auction since I lacked the “time or skill” to train her to stop.
[QUOTE=roseymare;8354920]
And a note about ace. It is a disassociative so if a horse is in tremendous pain and given ace it may react violently as the pain is then disassociated.[/QUOTE]
Not to hijack, could you explain “disassociative”? I know what the word means but I’m not sure I understand your post. (Thx!)
Here is the situation with my current hunter-curious because it’s the opposite experience from others posted above.
10yo Connemara cross pony, in her 4th season hunting. In the beginning of the year, she is obedient, and is mannerly in the plain snaffle she trail rides and does lessons in.
After a few weeks hunting, as her fitness increases, and she gets a couple of epic coyote chases under her belt, she is much more keen and her patience thins quickly. She tosses her head, jigs a little bit, and pulls enough to warrant bitting up. She loves her hunting, she is good at it, this is how she goes. Can I ride through it without help? Of course-but if 1/2 cc of a well known drug can keep her in a plain snaffle and keep the fillings in my teeth from rattling out, why not do it?
Ace is not a disassociative. Ketamine is.
[QUOTE=roseymare;8354920]
And a note about ace. It is a disassociative so if a horse is in tremendous pain and given ace it may react violently as the pain is then disassociated.[/QUOTE]
No…
Yes acepromazine is a disassociative as is ketamine.
It means basically that perceptions are changed. So a horse in tremendous pain may flip out and act violently because the source of pain is scrambled. Same with straight ketamine.
This disassociative effect is why it is no longer a recommended treatment for storm phobias in dogs.
[QUOTE=lesson junkie;8369317]
Here is the situation with my current hunter-curious because it’s the opposite experience from others posted above.
10yo Connemara cross pony, in her 4th season hunting. In the beginning of the year, she is obedient, and is mannerly in the plain snaffle she trail rides and does lessons in.
After a few weeks hunting, as her fitness increases, and she gets a couple of epic coyote chases under her belt, she is much more keen and her patience thins quickly. She tosses her head, jigs a little bit, and pulls enough to warrant bitting up. She loves her hunting, she is good at it, this is how she goes. Can I ride through it without help? Of course-but if 1/2 cc of a well known drug can keep her in a plain snaffle and keep the fillings in my teeth from rattling out, why not do it?[/QUOTE]
Putting her in a rubber Pelham and letting her spend the next few checks doing 4-track shoulder-in on a volte might be a more permanent fix for the problem.
I used to be posted as “road patrol” whipping-in, and when my horse was new to hunting he’d pop little “wheelie!” half-rears when he’d hear hounds. A few yards of “equine Pilates” cured that really, REALLY fast. He learned to stand still, striking a noble pose and sniffing the wind instead. :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=roseymare;8373100]
Yes acepromazine is a disassociative as is ketamine.
It means basically that perceptions are changed. So a horse in tremendous pain may flip out and act violently because the source of pain is scrambled. Same with straight ketamine.
This disassociative effect is why it is no longer a recommended treatment for storm phobias in dogs.[/QUOTE]
I can not find this. I see it in dogs but I cannot find that Ace is a disassociative in horses. Do you have any links ?
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8373862]
Putting her in a rubber Pelham and letting her spend the next few checks doing 4-track shoulder-in on a volte might be a more permanent fix for the problem.
I used to be posted as “road patrol” whipping-in, and when my horse was new to hunting he’d pop little “wheelie!” half-rears when he’d hear hounds. A few yards of “equine Pilates” cured that really, REALLY fast. He learned to stand still, striking a noble pose and sniffing the wind instead. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
Thank you for the suggestion, but this is a seasoned, experienced hunt horse who knows her job, and a pony mare to boot. She would turn circles and do shoulder ins 'till the cows come home, and it won’t do anything except make me miserable-that kind of correction doesn’t work with this horse.
The Pelham offends her-she has a nice snaffle mouth, a curb chain makes her very light in front, no matter the curb adjustment. A rubber Pelham is too big for her mouth.
We lead 2nd flight, she can hunt first flight if the opportunity presents, and will do fine if called upon to whip if necessary. She isn’t perfect-she jigs and pulls. If she didn’t do those things, I wouldn’t have been able to afford to buy her and she would belong to somebody else.
[QUOTE=lesson junkie;8374074]
Thank you for the suggestion, but this is a seasoned, experienced hunt horse who knows her job, and a pony mare to boot. She would turn circles and do shoulder ins 'till the cows come home, and it won’t do anything except make me miserable-that kind of correction doesn’t work with this horse.
The Pelham offends her-she has a nice snaffle mouth, a curb chain makes her very light in front, no matter the curb adjustment. A rubber Pelham is too big for her mouth.
We lead 2nd flight, she can hunt first flight if the opportunity presents, and will do fine if called upon to whip if necessary. She isn’t perfect-she jigs and pulls. If she didn’t do those things, I wouldn’t have been able to afford to buy her and she would belong to somebody else.[/QUOTE]
Oh my big hunt mare is like this! I agree. My mare doesn’t wear down. We are working on bits. I am trying a Weymouth right now, short shank with a chain. She is a little offended but at least i have brakes. I am going to pad the chain. She is fun and enthusiastic. But not what you would call a steady hunt horse. She is great with the hounds and that counts a lot.
[QUOTE=lesson junkie;8374074]
Thank you for the suggestion, but this is a seasoned, experienced hunt horse who knows her job, and a pony mare to boot. She would turn circles and do shoulder ins 'till the cows come home, and it won’t do anything except make me miserable-that kind of correction doesn’t work with this horse.
The Pelham offends her-she has a nice snaffle mouth, a curb chain makes her very light in front, no matter the curb adjustment. A rubber Pelham is too big for her mouth.
We lead 2nd flight, she can hunt first flight if the opportunity presents, and will do fine if called upon to whip if necessary. She isn’t perfect-she jigs and pulls. If she didn’t do those things, I wouldn’t have been able to afford to buy her and she would belong to somebody else.[/QUOTE]
My TB is the same.
He knows what hunting is supposed to be and he gets impatient! He is very skilled at levitating and once the hounds are cast he does his best Tigger impression. I do ride him in a Kimberwicke (he’s okay with the curb chain) but I’ve also had very good luck with a Mickmar short shank. Yes, it looks like an implement of torture, but it’s not a harsh bit and he like to spin the roller on the mouthpiece. If you can find one to borrow you might try it (they are expensive). He liked it right from the get go.
The best solution for him? Ride with staff :D. He loves being up front with the hounds so I’m learning how to whip.
[QUOTE=Bogie;8374410]
My TB is the same.
He knows what hunting is supposed to be and he gets impatient! He is very skilled at levitating and once the hounds are cast he does his best Tigger impression. I do ride him in a Kimberwicke (he’s okay with the curb chain) but I’ve also had very good luck with a Mickmar short shank. Yes, it looks like an implement of torture, but it’s not a harsh bit and he like to spin the roller on the mouthpiece. If you can find one to borrow you might try it (they are expensive). He liked it right from the get go.
The best solution for him? Ride with staff :D. He loves being up front with the hounds so I’m learning how to whip.[/QUOTE]
Mary’s Tack has a bit rental system to try different bits before you (the collective you) drop $120. The Mickmar looks interesting.
[QUOTE=roseymare;8354920]
And a note about ace. It is a disassociative so if a horse is in tremendous pain and given ace it may react violently as the pain is then disassociated.[/QUOTE]
Not trying to be snarky but please check your facts before making a statement of fact. IMO it very important on a public forum, over 4,000 people have read this thread. So there could be 1000s that now “carry” and possibly pass on “misinformation”.
Ace is NOT a “disassociative”. Ketamine is. Just to make sure I am correct in stating this I asked one of the head Surgeons with the New Bolton Center who was just at my farm gelding 4 horses. Along with 3 other vets and students.
[QUOTE=roseymare;8373100]
Yes acepromazine is a disassociative as is ketamine.
It means basically that perceptions are changed. So a horse in tremendous pain may flip out and act violently because the source of pain is scrambled. Same with straight ketamine.
This disassociative effect is why it is no longer a recommended treatment for storm phobias in dogs.[/QUOTE]
As I said in my reply to you other post. This is not correct as far as Ace is concerned.
[QUOTE=gumtree;8376678]
Not trying to be snarky but please check your facts before making a statement of fact. IMO it very important on a public forum, over 4,000 people have read this thread. So there could be 1000s that now “carry” and possibly pass on “misinformation”.
Ace is NOT a “disassociative”. Ketamine is. Just to make sure I am correct in stating this I asked one of the head Surgeons with the New Bolton Center who was just at my farm gelding 4 horses. Along with 3 other vets and students.[/QUOTE]
Oh thank you! I thought I was losing my mind!
[QUOTE=gumtree;8376678]
Not trying to be snarky but please check your facts before making a statement of fact. IMO it very important on a public forum, over 4,000 people have read this thread. So there could be 1000s that now “carry” and possibly pass on “misinformation”.
Ace is NOT a “disassociative”. Ketamine is. Just to make sure I am correct in stating this I asked one of the head Surgeons with the New Bolton Center who was just at my farm gelding 4 horses. Along with 3 other vets and students.[/QUOTE]
I had very little sleep last night and I read your last 2 sentences as one, and was :eek: horrified. Got it now.:):yes:
[QUOTE=skydy;8377224]
I had very little sleep last night and I read your last 2 sentences as one, and was :eek: horrified. Got it now.:):yes:[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::yes:
[QUOTE=skydy;8377224]
I had very little sleep last night and I read your last 2 sentences as one, and was :eek: horrified. Got it now.:):yes:[/QUOTE]
lol, it took me a “read” or two to “see” what you meant.
No vets or students were harmed in the making of my comment.
I did video one of the horses being “done”. Been debating whether to post on our FB page or not. It’s pretty graphic and the “drill” is used. So I am afraid that “nut cases” will come out of the woodwork.
Oh, heavens, don’t post. Don’t you know there are people on FB who are appalled by the horrific practice of driving nails into horse’s feet to hold shoes on? I don’t think those folks will be able to handle it. On another side note, I sure wish we could redirect the energy of all the folks who seem to have excess moral outrage towards situations like the current massive animal abuse case in VA or soring in the gaited horse show world. There ARE some active equine welfare issues in the US.
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