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Issues with outside rein inside leg connection: specifically horse ignores inside leg or ignores outside half halt

Dressage
#1

I am working with a really good trainer who is helping me understand how to get my horse on his hind end. She pointed out that my horse leans on his left shoulder track left and my hand tends to cross over and follow him into the lean. She told me that I should keep my right elbow at my side and create a wall with my outside aids right rein and right leg. And then push him into the wall with my inside leg. When I use too much inside flexion rein he brings his nose left and his ears to the right in a tilt. She wants me to try to not use the inside rein.

I practiced the next day and I was really trying to push with my inside leg and seat bone. My horse’s response is to ignore my leg. So I get a bit more aggressive and tap him with the whip to move over! At that point he runs over to the outside rein and runs thru it. So like the dressage instructions says, close your hand but don’t hang so you get an elastic feel in your outside rein. But my horse is not listening to my half halt. He is either hanging on his right shoulder now or just running thru his front end. I finally got aggressive and really halted him with the rein. But this is not what I want to do. I want to have a nice communication with elastic feel, not a yanking half halt, did you not hear me??? I have suddenly become very aware of how important the outside rein is and when I get my horse balanced on it, it feels amazing! Really increases the feel of him sitting on his hind end.

But I don’t want to have to fight with him to move over with my inside leg and to not ignore my outside balancing rein. I also have trouble with this horse in leg yielding to the right from my left leg. He wants to run thru my outside aids when I push him over or he will brace against me and not move over. What should I do?
Also I have another horse that is much older that I am trying to retrain as well. And when I ask him to move over his response is to run off with me. I am half halting and he is taking me for a tour around the ring as I am using a pully rein to stop him. Its bullying. And he has always done this to me to get me to quit doing what he doesn’t like. However! After the pully rein, he went on the outside rein and really sat on his haunches and I could drop the inside rein and ride around the ring with just my outside rein and leg

Any tips as my trainer is away for a while now and I am on my own for a couple of weeks!

#2

I like the exercise I got from Melissa Creswick in a clinic. Trot on a 20m circle, then push the horse’s hind end out as if you were doing a turn on the forehand until you are facing the other directions, then reverse and repeat. It really got my horse on the outside rein and helped me fine tune my aids. It’s hard for the rider because it’s not about pulling the front end in, but pushing the hind end out.

Good Luck!

2 Likes
#3

What is your inside hand doing during this? Can you also check your own weight to make sure you’re not leaning one way or the other? Make sure your outside hand is not coming too close to the withers and that your inside hand is not opening to the left. Both of these can block him from getting off your leg properly.

When you ask for him to get off your leg, make sure you’re ready to catch him in the outside rein when you ask. Close your fingers more or take just a tiny bit back on the outside rein at the same time you’re asking with your inside leg. If you still have problems, think of slight counter flexion and use your outside upper thigh to block the outside shoulder from popping out. If he ignores your outside thigh I would carry your whip on the outside and ask for him to come in on the circle using the outside thigh. Tap him on the outside shoulder with the whip if he ignores your outside thigh.

When asking for him to get off your inside leg, think of pushing your upper thigh down while encouraging a swing in the horse’s back through your hips towards the outside rein. Just make sure you don’t tip or twist your upper body so that you stay in the middle.

If he’s completely blowing through the half halt, assuming he understands them, block with your core and your outside rein. If he still goes through it I would abruptly stop him and make him back up. Then try again, asking nicely.

Sometimes I have to have my horse go haunches out on a circle, similar to what atlat suggested.

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#4

I like using haunches out on a circle (not renvers) for this type of issue as atlat described. Make sure to use your outside thigh to bring the shoulders. The outside thigh does a lot of work as far as maintaining line of travel.

I would also do leg yields to the wall and away from the wall (away from the wall is the best to get a horse upright) - as quick/sharp as you can while still being correctly parallel to the short side.

It sounds like your horse just doesn’t quite understand what the inside leg or outside rein or their connection mean. You need to first get him bending from your inside leg (using your inside rein too, if need be) and moving away from it as well. Then you can capture that energy in an outside rein half halt.

Remember not to be asking constantly for him to yield to the outside rein. Yes, it is a wall, but if you pull on it without releasing then the horse will 100% of the time blow through it when they feel like doing so. You need to half halt, then release the aid back to a normal rein pressure and let the horse think it through. Keep asking him correctly, praising any little tiny effort, and he will gain more confidence in his responses to you and stop blowing through the outside rein. Think give the aid, then allow him to respond.

Be patient with your horse. It sounds like he honestly doesn’t understand what you are asking and he is trying to find the right answer.

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#5

A bit like Atlat said. Actually, watch the Richard Spooner Gold Star West Coast Clinic from last year. He does an open inside rein, trotting forward, pushing haunches out and it’s wonderful to see some of the excited and stiff horses soften and see the kids start to soften back. I do it all the time with mine when she wants to set her jaw. She softens right up.

#6

I always liked exercises to help w timing and with breaking down the pieces and making sure the horse and rider are having a real conversation instead of just barreling around. Think abt rideability.

Good exercises are turn on the forehand. But study up so it’s done right. It directly addresses the fundamental concept of “move a hind leg under and keep front end contained”. Can your horse move a hindleg forward/under without slipping out the diagonal shoulder/foreleg? This is like leg yield but without momentum and one hind leg at a time so it makes it easier to puzzle out.

Slightly more advanced is to do transitions in shoulder in/shoulder fore. Shoulder in in trot along the long side. Walk while still in shoulder in then back to trot still in shoulder in. Great exercise for the rider as you control the shoulder while addressing the hindlegs. Also good for engagement–transitions on steroids.

Simple trot halt trot is also good. But make the transitions crisp in and out. Because when the half halt doesn’t go thru make a full halt :slight_smile:

Good luck!

#7

I am guessing the problem you have is that he does not fully understand what you want. You are dealing with a partner who you want him to do what you want but he does not understand english. You need to break it down for him and reward if he one out of 100 gets it right.

That hand crossing over is a big no no. But if you are anything like my husband, it is doing it all the time, especially when you are not being watched. Be super mindful of it.

Figure of eights will help him understand the outside rein.

1 Like
#8

To explain a bit more about this horse, he is the nicest horse I have ever sat on! He is a Rheinlander that I imported him from Germany based on his breeding( Lanciano/ Feiner stern) and his beautiful walk and canter! He overtracks at the walk by at least 4 hoof prints! Unbelievable. People call him freak of nature because he is the most beautiful mover! And he is forward and floaty and its like riding on a cloud, UNTIL I really get to the nuts and bolts of things and ask for straightness on the track left side. He is a bit weaker in the left hind my trainer says. The horse definitely has a work ethic and his favorite thing to do is jump! Has not refused anything I have put in front of him! The gymnastics thrill him because its so interesting for him. We have really been working on pushing him to the bridle thru all transitions are from the hind end into an elastic rein contact. He is doing very well with this, but now he is leaking out the sides with straightness. My last lesson on the weekend he started being a bit hard to turn to track left cavalleti, pushing out the right shoulder and my trainer introduced the concept that I need to stop involving my left hand. I need to push him out to an open right rein giving him a place to go. Now the fireworks are starting. I don’t want to fight with my baby horse! I know to keep a wall on the right side and push him to it with my left leg and even use counter bend on the right if he is trying too hard to push thru my right side aids moving him back to the left and then pushing him back again with my left leg. But I am finding I can’t push him with the left because as soon as I do he is trying to punch thru the right side again. I feel like I have to keep him straight without that lovely bend in the ribcage and I have to keep turning off my outside leg and thigh and I don’t get to use my inside thigh to push to the outside rein. I really want to get this because he is going to feel amazing if he learns to sit in his outside rein. He already feels amazing even while being crooked! I also want to understand why he is having so much trouble with this? Is it normal? I feel he is a pretty athletic horse.

TequilaMockingbird: I am trying to let go off my inside rein and keep my right rein away from my horse’s neck. My older horse is letting me do this and he keeps the bend from my inside leg. My younger horse just turns his head to the outside when I do this. I am a bit confused…… if you are keeping the outside rein trying to push your horse into this rein with your inside leg, are you supposed to be keeping a slight flexion rein so that you can see the horse’s inside eyelashes? Sometimes I have been taught to open the inside rein and allow with the outside rein in suppling bending because you have to encourage the horse to have a place to go and if you restrict with the outside rein, they cannot move inward… I know the outside rein is the restricting rein, but can you use your inside rein to make sure the horse is flexing properly to the inside or is this too much. Outside rein, inside rein. Too much restricting?

Atlatl and Samantha37: I am confused how haunches out will help. My horse likes to travel by leaning in on his left shoulder and swinging his hauches out to the outside. Wouldn’t I be asking him to do what he wants to do. Swing his haunches to the outside

Puffergrrl: your exercise sounds interesting but this is my horse’s tendency. He wants me to pull on the inside rein inward and swing his haunches out. How does this help?
Zonderpaard: Yes I started on the ground and pushed at the girth area and asked him to cross over his hind legs in both directions. He did great! Last October he was very resistant crossing left hind over right hind moving off to the right. I was pleased. Then I got on and did turn on the forehand under saddle and he also did very well. And in the past he would run forward or back up if I asked him to move from my left leg to the right. I haven’t worked much with shoulder fore because as soon as I ask his right shoulder to move off the rail he falls in badly on his left shoulder and if I try to get him back to the right and pushing with my leg at the girth he stalls on walking or trotting forward. Backing up to more basics!
SuzieQNutter: Yes you are right he doesn’t understand English yet! He was born and raised in Germany!

#9

So regarding haunches out - my big guy gets tight along the long muscles on the top of his back on the left side. Which results in his leaning on my left leg, not wanting to do all the things you describe. Haunches to the right helps lengthen that tight muscle, and allows him to move more evenly. He may go haunches right crooked, but actually bent to the right lengthens the tight muscle. If your horse’s issue is identical, that will also help.

If you’re trying to get your horse to bend left… and he does, you’ve had success. I’m not sure why the upset that he doesn’t want to bend left, then he does - and somehow that’s not ok either? It’s up to you to control how much you request and how you support with outside aids, but you’re able to get the response you want, it sounds like.

#10

netg if I bend left he falls in on his left shoulder. I want him to bend in the left ribcage and have the contact in my outside right rein. I get it at times and it feels wonderful. but then sometime he feels like he is bracing against me and the elastic feeling is gone. I am hoping to have an elastic outside rein with a bend in the ribcage from a relaxed breathing leg, not a braced hard pushing from me and a feeling of force and stiffness and not supple. the horse is doing very well at times especially going into the contact from the hind end but now he seems to be leaking out the sides and getting crooked.
I am going to try stretching his haunches to the outside like suggested. but what if he leans on the left shoulder when I do this?

#11

It’s not just moving the haunches to the outside, it’s also getting the horse to fill up the outside rein. The horse can’t fall in if he’s truly connected on the outside rein.

#12

A secret to horse training: Try using lateral work. If one thing doesn’t work that day to help the problem, try something else. Who gives a flying flip if it doesn’t work? Just try something else, no harm done. :slight_smile:

4 Likes
#13

yes and that is the problem. he is not connected on the outside rein. how do you fill up the outside rein by letting the haunches go to the outside? I can’t quite picture this…

#14

Two things that might help you:

  1. If you try too long to get the bend in one direction the horse can set a resistance and toodle along ignoring you. If you’re not getting the response change the bend, even do a circle the other way. Reward the smallest bend at first and you can then ask for a bit more.

  2. Can you get the horse to go as you want on the right rein? If so then you can ride a circle or two on one rein, then switch to the other and ride a circle or two on the other rein. As you go back and forth feel what’s going on, then feel what you are doing with your aids. Describe it to yourself using inside/outside rather than left/right. Do not try to change anything, just feel. You’ll probably find your aids are different - more or less leg or hand, position of leg or hand. Where your seat is weighted, etc. Once you can identify a difference try to make the bad side aids identical to the good side aids. Keep feeling what you are doing and changing the bad side to match the good side. You won’t identify everything at once.

Finally, do remember that one side is weaker than the other. Hammering away at the bad side just makes the horse tired and sore, and he will then use the wrong muscles to compensate. Work both sides equally. Change rein/bend frequently. The weaker side will catch up. :wink:

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#15

So atlatl’s proposed exercise should help get your horse moving away from your inside leg. You need that, not to worry about the reins. Get the body where you need, and the head will follow.

Note that this is a different potential solution than haunches out (renvers) which I suggested. Both are valid, and either may help. Shoulder in, if you can ride it correctly, will actually help, too. Your problem sounds as if it’s your horse leaning on inside leg - not actually in the shoulder. So moving the ribs is what will help you.

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#16

I sent you a pm

#17

LOL when they brought some horses over from Germany, the trainer on TV said it was much easier once the horses learned English.

What I meant by him not understanding English is why should he do what you want? What is in it for him? What do you do when he gets it right? How does he know he has done right? You need to reward him. A reward is giving the inside rein, saying good boy and you can scratch him on his neck.

As is said figures of 8 will give him the understanding of the outside rein. You are changing the bend and the flexion continually.

No you can’t hold the inside rein. If you hold the inside rein they throw their head etc. If you hold the inside rein you block forward movement, also they learn from release of pressure so when you let go of the inside rein they then turn out and voila a release of pressure and you have taught them to look out.

To teach him to look in, you ask with the inside rein and then give, along with your half halt, the release of pressure is while they are looking in so you teach them to look in without being held there. To prove you are in the inside rein, you should be able to prove the rein. Which means circle no inside rein with the horse on the correct bend. You can just see the corner of the eye. No more. At the moment you should be thinking of straightness.

Now he is a baby and is not understanding so be very careful with listening to him as I did this with my horse and found out how wrong I was. I thought as you did that he was not straight and pushing him over and then he went too far then outside aid on and he came back too far and so and so forth.

In reality he was not belligerant. He was trying so hard. I was the one not listening.

So put the inside aid on and give him time to respond. Let him figure it out, don’t put it on too hard so that he goes too far. Instead finesse your aids and allow him time to get where you want and keep him there, with lots of good boys. It is a lot of listening to your horse and like trying to back a caravan where you have to know what you do now means what will happen in 2 seconds time so change before the 2 seconds is up or you will jackknife.

Yes you are right you turn and circle from the outside aides. That is correct. If you have too much outside rein it does not stop forward it puts them in to shoulder in.

I hope that is not as clear as mud. I have to go. I am going to a lesson this morning.

1 Like
#18

How old is your guy? He sounds something like my 4 yo. I have this issue going to the right. I started wanting to cross my inside hand over but immediately stopped that. I realized he wasn’t off my inside leg and I was blocking him, on the inside and the outside. And getting all twisted up. My instructor has since described where we want him to go by using the term coloring in the lines. We want to open the lines where the color can go and push the color out to those lines. The reins allow the lines open and the horse is the color. Push the outside hand forward. And that requires a lot of trust on my part as he’s not entirely in the reins, or shoulders yet. And he’s a big mover. Getting more consistent, but when he’s falling in, there’s not a whole lot there in my hands so I want to pull back. And my hands can be uneven and block him if I feel off balance (yes, weight even in your stirrups and outside shoulder coming around). So I make sure I’m not letting him go through my inside elbow, but I’m not holding the inside hand too far back so I’m allowing him to go forward. And I’m also pushing my outside hand forward so that it’s not blocking him. It’s not actually forward, it’s even with my inside hand. And I’m half-halting by a squeeze of my hand on whichever shoulder he’s going through, stronger if needed. But if he’s blowing through the outside, I have to catch him ahead of time and sometimes use my outside as leg, as in a strong kick. We are getting it. He simply still likes to “look” at things if I let him.

Linda Zang used TOF in a clinic with me to get the same result and I use that as well. At the walk, tap with love on the inside shoulder with a whip to get him off of it and bending around my leg. My instructor says both roads lead to Rome…

(Disclaimer: I am not a professional rider and not good with words so you get what you pay for…) :wink:

#19

The other thing to consider is your own body. Are you crooked? Are you blocking him unintentionally with tightness in your hip, your seat, or your hands?

Sometimes we can get so caught up in the horse, we have to take a second to make sure we are evaluating our own body. If you’re not allowing, it won’t happen. Sometimes it’s just a small tweak, or a reminder to yourself to relax x part every few strides. Keep the inside leg there to encourage the bend, but make sure the outside hip and leg isn’t restricting.

It does not matter how fancy, floaty, athletic, whatever the horse is, proper work can be hard and takes strength and balance! This can take time and some ugly moments so don’t feel discouraged at all.

An exercise I use is alternating leg yields down the centerline. I begin down the centerline and leg yield left a few steps, then right back to the center line, proceed straight for a few steps, then leg yield right, and then left back to the centerline and so on. Or it can be all in the same direction: leg yield right, go straight, leg yield right again, straight, and so on until you reach the rail. I’ll also use half pass.

I recently had to spend a lot of time at the walk with my horse that had a minor injury. Going back to the walk for a few weeks actually improved all of our other work. I did shoulder in, turn on the haunches, turn on the forehand, side pass, reverse, and walk transitions (collected, extended, medium). So a revisit to some basics was good for us. If you can get a nice bend at the walk, then transition to the trot, if you lose the nice bend in your trot, come back to the walk, get it again, then trot and try to keep the bend. I’m theory, you should be able to keep the nice bend easier and for longer as the horse develops.

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#20

You are confused that your horse is not responding to signals that he doesn’t understand.
You are confused as to what to do to fix your problems.
You are clearly confusing your horse.

Like a blind leading the blind.

Your horse is young and has no clue what you are asking. This is training.
You need to know what you are doing, and what is the end result expected.
You need to know what are the steps your horse will take has he learns.
You need to repeat the exact same thing over and over, and reward at every tiny bit of good move your horse does.

What you are describing is totally normal and expected from a youngster in training.

There is only so much internet folks can do.
More lessons and pro rides should help you a lot.

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