It keeps getting better.... and then there was Asmussen

[Acertainsmile]

If I am going to work a horse in the morning that I know bleeds, I will give lasix… usually not the full dose he would get in the afternoon though, it would depend on how far we are working… I’ve had stake horses who get lasix in the afternoon, they get it because they have bled working in the morning… I would not take a chance on it happening in the a.m.

And really, if you have a fit horse that runs frequently, you dont need to work them hard in the mornings, but some precaution goes a long way in the overall health of the horse.

Also, most horses get a jug the day after they run, or breeze to replace what has been taken out of them.

[DickHertz]

That jug the next day does nothing to help the liver. The damage is already done.

[Acertainsmile]

[QUOTE=DickHertz;3325535]
That jug the next day does nothing to help the liver. The damage is already done.[/QUOTE]

Dick, from what I’ve witnessed (older horses recieving lasix, I have one that ran 104 times) I’m not seeing liver damage… he is in perfect health, as well as others I have been around.

From what studies I’ve read, yes, liver/kidney damage is a possiblity, just like Tylenol can cause that in humans. It seems that if you administer non-steroidal anti- inflammatories prior to Lasix, it helps. (If I’m reading right).

http://journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/ymai/medline/record/MDLN.1941755

[QHJockee]

[QUOTE=DickHertz;3325401]
I do think a lot of trainers live off their day rate. .[/QUOTE]

Do you have any idea for the average trainer it is to live solely off day rate? Let’s take, for example, a $65 day rate (middle of the road). Average $12 for feed/hay/supplements, $7-8 for bedding, $10 for gallop rider, $5 for hotwalker, $10-$12 for groom, business insurance (i.e. workmen’s comp), $4-$8 stall rent (off season or at a training center), that leaves the trainer with little more than to get breakfast off of per horse.

So unless you are Baffert or Asmussen or Frankel or are a private trainer and have all your bills picked up, trainers are dependent on percentages.

[DickHertz]

You didn’t read my entire post. Plus, many of the things you bring up vary greatly be region. I never said some trainers live at the Taj Mahal, I said some can provide a meager living on the day rate.

[loriandlobo]

I’ve never given a jug either after a workout or a race. He gets enough time between races to recover properly and I never work him harder or faster than he wants to go. He never comes back tired from a work. Therefore, running is fun for him and he shows it in a race. I’m not the type of person that’s going to drug my horse to get something out of him the drug him again to get him back up to par. You keep a horse healthy and get him fit. He will take care of the rest. Sure am glad I quit my job to train my horse. If he was with some of u, I’d have to work just to pay the vet bills on a seemingly healthy horse, just so you people could “train” him. Anyone can train with a needle. Not real impressive!!! By the way, I have friends who train, groom, and gallop their own outside cheap horses - they survive off their day rate.

[Acertainsmile]

Gosh Lori… since when did electrolytes become a drug?

I’ll be looking for you in the winners circle… since you are the only trainer out there with a clue…

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;3329953]
Gosh Lori… since when did electrolytes become a drug?

I’ll be looking for you in the winners circle… since you are the only trainer out there with a clue…[/QUOTE]

:lol:

I can see the Congress sessions now. Evil “steroids” are booted off the agenda for the new public enemy #1-- ELECTROLYTES! Salt is destroying the careers of our racehorses.

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

[Chiniko]

[QUOTE=loriandlobo;3324966]
Yeah, I gotta win with my horse, too. Only difference is I don’t sell my soul do the devil to do it. $118,000 in career earnings, 1 stakes win, 2 stakes placed finishes, and 3 cc Lasix on race days only!! Annual vet bills total $500-$600 including Lasix and vaccinations. DON’T TELL ME IT CAN’T BE DONE - YOU JUST DON’T HAVE THE TALENT TO DO IT!!![/QUOTE]

Lori, Lasix is far from the devil. Not every horse needs lasix but a huge majority do. Place them at sea level and they need it more. I have friends who rarely to never work on lasix. I’ve had horse’s I’d not let out of a slow lope without lasix. Turning them out doesn’t solve the world lasix problems.
Lasix is very useful. Morning and afternoon.
I’ve got more talent in my pinky than anyone who juices their horses with illegal medications.JFYI.
Here is a scenario I experienced in my assistant days.
I had this colt. Tough as nails, lugged out but was quite sound. Had never been gotten into, carried great weight, just a PITA to deal with. So I am wrung out and ask a friend of mine to get on the horse for me. He’s a handy guy and gets along with the horse in a big way.
As in the way of several summer meets my boy shows up one day drunk still from the night before. I was on the track with my pony and didn’t see him before he got on the track. I wouldn’t have let him gallop him or pony galloped him had I caught it. My fault.
So the horse goes out to train. He runs off with the guy. The clockers got him in 46 flat in the middle of the race track. I begged them not to make it an official work an I knew he would have to work when my boss showed up a couple of days later.
The outrider has to pull the horse up. I don’t really think that much of the horse as he’s not a big bleeder, he showed no signs of anything after the unscheduled work. I was mortified, and didn’t tell my boss. I think I just said the horse had trained strongly. No big deal. Well at the end of the morning the groom comes running to me and points out the lovely dried blood coming out of both nostrils. He had cooled out well, but with his head down in the half flake of alfalfa in the corner of hi stall and the blood had trickled out. Poop. I knew the colt had to work in 2 days. I was spitting mad at the exercise rider and myself.
I jogged him a mile the next day.
He had to work at 4:30 am 2 days later. So I upped the dose of Lasix to a whopping 6cc. He worked again in 46 and change and somehow scoped clean 2 days after the had bled.
So that work was a blow out for an overnight stake 4 days later. Knowing what had happened days earlier, thinking hard on ways to have this horse run and not bleed I went to the mattress medically. Though still didn’t up the Lasix past 6cc. He won, and scoped clean post race. He needed lasix. Physically he showed zero sign of a physical issue, he was dead fit. According to what so many claim he has no business racing. He’s a bleeder, not going to snap it off kind of horse. (I’ve never met a Double Honour I’ve liked) and this horse was no exception.
I had to do what I had to do to get this horse to the race and successfully. I was under serious pressure to perform. He was not treated with anything illegal. All meds were allowed and given within the allotted time frame. I got lucky.
Lasix isn’t even the tip of the iceberg as far as meds are concerned. It’s the people who cheat with things that endanger life that we need to be aware of. I’ve worked for those guys and have no desire to do so ever again. I follow the rules pretty much accordingly. Additional lasix isn’t harmful. They are hydrated pre and post race. They are fed Urva Ursi and Milk thistle.
I will always treat a bleeder (and yes the euro’s bleed) and will even give it to first time starters that have not bled in the am.
Why not try to protect them from pain of bleeding rather than allowing them to bleed and hurt.

[Chiniko]

[QUOTE=rcloisonne;3325262]
Funny, Lasix isn’t allowed anywhere in the world but NA. Wonder how those other countries can run a horse without? And, I find it hard to believe 99% of TB’s in NA need Lasix for “bleeding”. Come on, we all know why it’s really used/abused here.[/QUOTE]

LAsix is not weakening the breed. How many Irish or GB or Arg horses do you see maybe not on lasix for a while and then poof there it is. Or a decent Euro tha’s form was good than then starts to weaken every race. Comes to the US and gets lasix and is finishing again? They import our horses, yearlings and horses of racing age to Europe. They breed to their and our stallions and foal on their soil and they still bleed. Many bleed prior to ever getting here. Read the form and get informed. Euro’s don’t not bleed. They do and we are the one place that they can come to and do what they are bred to do.
What of the horses that bleed galloping… and are sound? BUT they are stressed as thy go to a new racetrack every three months or so. They van, they fly… the stress adds up.
Facts are all athletes bleed. Not just those of the equine nature

[Chiniko]

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;3329953]
Gosh Lori… since when did electrolytes become a drug?

I’ll be looking for you in the winners circle… since you are the only trainer out there with a clue…[/QUOTE]

Gosh out to have more than what…one?.. horse?? I bet you are the highest percentage trainer in the world! Bless you!!

[loriandlobo]

All I got out of that is you got lucky, you didn’t put the welfare of the horse first, your boss can’t trust his help, the horse deserved better, and THAT’S WHY I TRAIN MY OWN!!! Best advice I ever got when I got into racing was NEVER trust anyone. Perfect example of why. Thanks for the enlightenment.:lol::lol::lol: Oh, and remember, most times horses get things done IN SPITE of us, not because of us. By the way, horses will replenish their own electrolytes if given enough time to do it and if some wanna be isn’t taking it out of them every morning, they’ll do it a lot faster.:eek::eek::eek:

[Chiniko]

As for trainers living off of their day rate. I doubt it. I’ve brushed, galloped and charged top dollar for training which was a measly $52. I also won at %33. Still I barely kept afloat. My main exercise rider makes $1400 a week which is $5600 a month. That’s just one rider. Add the grooms, insurance, feed and not being skimpy on supplies. I have to win races to make a living.
As for Baffert etc. Commissions have been very very good to them and really really helped them enjoy a certain lifestyle. Those of us who live in this business, starving or otherwise know that the sales are a great and weasly way to make money let alone private sales. There are so many ways to cover your expenses once the day rate is used up. And it does get used up fast

[Chiniko]

[QUOTE=loriandlobo;3330100]
All I got out of that is you got lucky, you didn’t put the welfare of the horse first, your boss can’t trust his help, the horse deserved better, and THAT’S WHY I TRAIN MY OWN!!! Best advice I ever got when I got into racing was NEVER trust anyone. Perfect example of why. Thanks for the enlightenment.:lol::lol::lol: Oh, and remember, most times horses get things done IN SPITE of us, not because of us. By the way, horses will replenish their own electrolytes if given enough time to do it and if some wanna be isn’t taking it out of them every morning, they’ll do it a lot faster.:eek::eek::eek:[/QUOTE]

Ya I got lucky with a horse who has won over half a mil. Damn I feel terrible for giving it the devil lasix.
The horse’s welfare was not in jeopardy. You horse’s welfare is in jeopardy every time you work it on lasix. Eventualy they all bleed.
I’d rather hydrate a horse by tube or IV and let them piss it out uselessly. As long as they are hydrated in the summer. I don’t get heat strokes, I get happy healthy horses that run their guts out. More than the one horse you lay claim to. I have a barn full of good little soldiers that run thru the bridle. Do I feel bad that I give lasix or pre race with bute… NEVER!

[loriandlobo]

Of course u don’t. I wouldn’t expect your kind to. I’ve been around a horse with over 1/2 mill. in earnings, well, not me actually, just my horse. But it wasn’t for long, just long enough to pass him in the stretch. Of course, THAT horse isn’t running any longer, couldn’t keep covering up his problems. And no, not ALL horses bleed. Maybe just the ones ur use to being around.

[loriandlobo]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:By the way, how many years did this horse of “yours” race and what’s he doing now? All horses bleed, haha, that’s a good one!!!

[Blueshadow]

:mad:

Jesus Christ (sorry to those that find that phrase offensive, but my mother use its frequently in anger!) get a life, you people fighting over how many, and what for, and how common, and how easy to be “tested for” and all the rest of the crap that apparently defends current racing practice in this country.

The North American racing circuit (sorry to place you in such global terms, and I’m sure some egocentrism is bound to result) is the ONLY major racing jurisdiction in the world that permits ANY of this crap to be injected into/injested by its racehorses legally at any level.

Racing can be just as wonderful as an experience without ANY of this crap. Push to get rid of it (drugs) completely (irrespective of the details and I won’t comment on those for the Asmussen “ban”) or admit that your industry is full of it and you don’t care. Period. But get a grip. Figure it out. The horses don’t need it. The industry sure as hell doesn’t need it. And the origins of admitting it are pathetic and not rationalized by subsequent data on number of starts, longevity of horse careers, or anything else…except bad publicity for the industry. Congrats, north american racing.

PS. My father, a lifelong fan of track and field athletics ( I was a participant as a teen and he was a trainer), will no longer watch competitive track and field. He is boycotting coverage of the olypmpics. WHY? Drugs.

[DickHertz]

Nothing looks worse than people bragging about their percentages and being condescending toward other people. I don’t know if the people who are condescending know how bad they really look. It’s one thing to be opinionated, but there’s no need to start getting personal and ripping on someone just because they disagree with you. I like this forum because people are opinionated and share their ideas - it’s nice to see how different everyone can be. No need to start ripping on people because they have one horse (or semantics in the case of a jug).

[Pronzini]

@Blueshadow;3330246

:mad:

Jesus Christ (sorry to those that find that phrase offensive, but my mother use its frequently in anger!) get a life, you people fighting over how many, and what for, and how common, and how easy to be “tested for” and all the rest of the crap that apparently defends current racing practice in this country.

The North American racing circuit (sorry to place you in such global terms, and I’m sure some egocentrism is bound to result) is the ONLY major racing jurisdiction in the world that permits ANY of this crap to be injected into/injested by its racehorses legally at any level.

Racing can be just as wonderful as an experience without ANY of this crap. Push to get rid of it (drugs) completely (irrespective of the details and I won’t comment on those for the Asmussen “ban”) or admit that your industry is full of it and you don’t care. Period. But get a grip. Figure it out. The horses don’t need it. The industry sure as hell doesn’t need it. And the origins of admitting it are pathetic and not rationalized by subsequent data on number of starts, longevity of horse careers, or anything else…except bad publicity for the industry. Congrats, north american racing.

PS. My father, a lifelong fan of track and field athletics ( I was a participant as a teen and he was a trainer), will no longer watch competitive track and field. He is boycotting coverage of the olypmpics. WHY? Drugs.

I guess you missed John Sadler on the radio this past weekend. He basically said “give me European racing and I’ll be happy to abide by European rules.”

IOW, apples and oranges Blueshadow. You cannot compare the European product with the American and making the US compare would revamp the whole racing calendar and change the nature of the sport over here. Maybe that’s a good thing but I don’t know how anyone reasonably does it.

[Florida_Fan]

in the sun

It is quite easy to see which of you has really made a living actually racing horses for A. any length of time, and that would be a decade at least. B. Being absolutely in charge of the horses that race, and not just one or two, but a stable of many, in many different categories. C. Many different states. D. Really knowledgeable about the body chemistry and the meds given/allowed. E. Training just “your own” and /or having a public racing stable. Lasix is pretty much accepted as a positive medication, and whichever of you said “we give jugs after the races”—takes care of the fluids/electrolytes lost during race. As for liver damage—that would be more closely related to administration of cortico-steriods on a regular basis. You all know that ANSAIDs are safer in that respect, even with the show horses, and humans. Some heart patients take lasix every day. All are entitled to an opinion, but until you are in the game making a living as the trainer responsible for all aspects of the horse, you are, for the most part, merely speculating.