I will NOT breed her solely to produce some funky strange looking dilute foal and then hang a high “For Sale” sign on it to boot …
Who would ever think such a thing?
NJR
OK, just because I know for a FACT that you CAN catch a horse with a very good walk at a bad moment in time, here is a still I captured off a video off a very GOOD breeder’s website (identification has been disguised) of a GOV V. Pr. mare who’s walk scored an 8, please don’t try to tell me she’s pacing, because I saw the video and this mare has the most sexy, slinky, elastic FOUR beat walk I have ever seen!! I was drooling over and coveting her walk…but it doesn’t look so good at this moment in time in the picture…does it? In fact the foot fall pattern is VERY close to TC’s mare.
http://picasaweb.google.com/notasoccermom68/MagnitoAkaSparky#5553956328842765202
I agree that it’s a very bad picture, and maybe she doesn’t have an 8 walk, but it certainly doesn’t mean she’s pacing or doing a gaited horse gait!!
Thank you ES - I wholeheartedly agree.
[QUOTE=Equine Studies;5297849]
TC-I hope you (and the mare of course) prove everyone wrong because I love when that sort of thing happens.
And I’d like to add that your reply was just about the nicest I’ve ever read in response to what some might consider borderline nasty criticism.
I don’t seen that very often on this board.
Signed,
A friend of Florentine Gold (or Blondie as I like to call her).[/QUOTE]
This is the way we breed as well.
I too, TC hope that this mare is all you want her to be as well and look forward to your foals this coming year.
Wait til she gets here, her mane gets pulled, she gets weight on her if she needs it or weight taken off if she needs that instead and THEN I’ll stand her up and take a few pictures of her. And then at least she can be honestly and truly assessed
When might this be, for those of us who are waiting with anticipation?
NJR
I don’t want to comment on this mare in particular, or her suitability as a broodmare.
I know even the most beautiful of horses can take a bad picture sometimes.
Not only that, but not everyone has the same priorities in their breeding programs - to some people colour is VERY important, and to others not at all.
But there have been a few threads recently, this one and another featuring some wildly coloured TB stallions, and it raised a question once again that I wonder about.
I have been looking at TB horses pretty much my whole life- and I have never seen a TB horse with these wild white patterns, until recently.
The first that I can remember was an ad in one of my TB stallion directories for Puchilingui.
But where did his colouring come from, and where before that?
Does anyone more familiar with these pedigrees know the ‘source ancestor(s)’ - that is the originator of these markings? Is there any one individual that they can be traced to?
thanks in advance.
Can someone tell me when the Jockey Club started registering these paints?
Are they really full TBs?
They aren’t Paints - that’s a breed 
They have pinto coloring, but not just ANY pinto. There is no Tobiano in TBs. But there is and always has been, at least for a really long time, sabino and splash. Where the Frame came from, I don’t know. I suspect Dominant White has been there a really long time as well, but for some reason just never really made a visual impact. The “white” TBs, however far back they go, were DW most likely, not the max sabinos that has been thought until recently.
The pedigrees on these horses for sport is actually very good…the same for the dilutes. Whether they are trained to any specialty or to their ability is an issue of who buys and breeds them. I was just this week looking at the Canadian Horse breed and I had thought they were small black Morgan type horses and found to my surprise they have lots of hidden dilutes in addition to regular old bays and chestnuts and some white markings and they are very nice moving sport horses. So they have double dilutes they call ash white. It is easy for untraditional color to hide in the “allowed” colors. The registries did not allow the actual color to be registered even if the real color was known. No white in TBs and certainly not the knowledge of Dominant White being a modifier of the base color. Many buckskins hid in the blacks and brows of many registries like Morgans and Canadians and TBs. If a real surprise color popped up it is possible the horsesz could be denied regstry if it was not believed possible to produce that color from the known parents. Even today there are occasional parent foal matches that indicated the wrong parents are the registered parents. PatO
Yep, it was only VERY recently that the JC allowed palomino to be registered - prior to that they were all registered chestnut. They still don’t allow buckskin as a color :rolleyes: And they CERTAINLY would never register a horse as smoky black because, well, he LOOKS black :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Fred;5401089]
The first that I can remember was an ad in one of my TB stallion directories for Puchilingui. But where did his colouring come from, and where before that? Does anyone more familiar with these pedigrees know the ‘source ancestor(s)’ - that is the originator of these markings? Is there any one individual that they can be traced to?[/QUOTE]
Fred, with some googling I found this discussion, but it’s late and I’m only reading the first page - but check out the first post:
"Bit of trivia, following on from the recent white TB post I have gone back through the pedigrees of four white thoroughbreds, two of which are from identified Dominant White mutations.
These are Puchilingui, Yuki Chan, The Bride and White Beauty (grandam of Patchen Beauty). None of them are closely related in their first 5 generations.
So I took each of them and looked at ancestors in common back to the 8th generation. This gave me a list of 10 horses as follows:
SELENE (Dam of Hyperion)
CHAUCER (sire of Selene)
PHALARIS
SPEARMINT
ROI HERODE
THE TETRARCH
TEDDY
POLYMELUS
BAY RONALD
SUNDRIDGE
Then taking these horses and listing their family back a further 5 generations I again looked for the common ancestors
There is only 1 horse in all their pedigrees and this is the funny bit his name is NEWMINSTER and I quote from the tbheritage site he was “of a solid bay color without a speck of white,”
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/newminster
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Newminster.html "
Many of the Dominant White lines are fairly new mutations, which is why a lot of them haven’t been along much.
Not to mention a lot of whites who were born previously were probably culled due to their color.
[QUOTE=JB;5401322]
Yep, it was only VERY recently that the JC allowed palomino to be registered - prior to that they were all registered chestnut. They still don’t allow buckskin as a color :rolleyes: And they CERTAINLY would never register a horse as smoky black because, well, he LOOKS black :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Correct me if I am wrong. But I read somewhere that the first palomino was not allowed because there has never been a palomino before until Milkie xx was born… it is only after a lot of discussion within the jockey club that they finally accepted him because he had so much similitude with his sire they could not deny Deer Lodge was his sire.
Now he might have been the sire but… what about the sire of the dam.
How about someone trying to introduce this color in the breed with the mare. This mare could have been bred to a Palomino but had not his color and was registered as an offspring of Onomea which was himself chesnut and then produced the color palomino with Deer Lodge.
I am not saying this is what happened and we will never know, but it could have been possible to do this. Before the DNA procedure there was a lot going on in the warmblood world so this could have happen in the JC too.
[QUOTE=JB;5401254]
They aren’t Paints - that’s a breed They have pinto coloring, but not just ANY pinto. There is no Tobiano in TBs. But there is and always has been, at least for a really long time, sabino and splash. Where the Frame came from, I don’t know. I suspect Dominant White has been there a really long time as well, but for some reason just never really made a visual impact. The “white” TBs, however far back they go, were DW most likely, not the max sabinos that has been thought until recently.[/QUOTE]
But aren’t Paints (the breed) a registry in which the horses are pintos (the color) of one sort or another?
[QUOTE=M. O’Connor;5402096]
But aren’t Paints (the breed) a registry in which the horses are pintos (the color) of one sort or another?[/QUOTE]
From the APHA website: "While the colorful coat pattern is essential to the identity of the breed, American Paint Horses have strict bloodline requirements and a distinctive stock-horse body type. To be eligible for registry, a Paint’s sire and dam must be registered with the American Paint Horse Association, the American Quarter Horse Association, or the Jockey Club (Thoroughbreds). At least one parent must be a registered American Paint Horse. "
So while yes, Paints are a breed with horses that have pinto patterns are registered (and plains are registrable as breeding stock), you can not just go register a horse you find/make (sale, action, foal with unexpected markings) that has pinto coloring with the APHA. All Paints can be registered as pintos (except the solid/breeding stock paints) but all pintos can not be Paints.
So yes, if let’s say… Puchiligini was bred to a sold breeding stock Paint mare and produced a DW-based ‘pinto’ colored horse, that progeny could be a Paint. I’m not sure what ‘approval’ JC tb stallions have to go to to produce APHA Paint foals - but I have definitely seen some JC-registered TBs that are advertised as ‘listed with the APHA’ or something along those lines…
I think there was a change a little while back to the inclusion of JC horses. Since 2005 (?) the rule about having one Paint parent applies. I am guessing that JC horses that are registered Paint got in prior to 2005.
I was reading the other day about some Trakehner jumping lines and they said that the TB stallion Birdcatcher was wildly marked.
yup, that’s where the term “birdcatcher spots” came from. But birdcatcher and bend or spots are different from paint/pinto type markings.
Dilli - I think the APHA has gone back and forth on this a few times, this is just the latest iteration. It’s like high white in QHs. Just wait 5 minutes, the rule will change.
Interestingly enough, upon further research of Newminster’s sire Touchstone, he goes back several times to the Darley Arabian who from his portrait had a large blaze and three white feet. I would guess the dominant white gene came from one of the Arabian ancestors and it was just hidden until the right cross came along.
Also in his pedigree are a couple of palominos: Darcy’s Yellow Turk
Oxford Dun Arabian Mare who was by a buckskin (what they considered “dun”) stallion (Picture of the Oxford Dun Arabian here)
Aha! I found one possible originator:
Grosvenor Arabian
Here’s a larger version of that picture. Looks like he had Bend Or spots too.
