Itching/scratching as evasion technique? (video post #13)

[sirbeastmom]

I’ve got an itchy horse … who only seems to get that way when I ride her.

During about 40 percent of our rides, my mare will stop dead in her tracks and either turn around and scratch at the area behind her elbow (right in front of her cinch) or rub her face on her front legs. The face rubbing will often be accompanied by rooting, where she’ll shove her nose down before scratching. Sometimes the scratching will occur for just a few seconds and sometimes it’ll go on for the duration of our ride.

And after every ride–literally every ride in the four years I’ve owner her–she’ll turn around and bite the area where the cinch attatches to the billet and latigo. She’s been treated for ulcers, though the vet doubted she had them, and it hasn’t changed this behavior. Vets have shrugged their shoulders at why she does this. She doesn’t act grouchy at all when I tighten the cinch.

She’s 7 years old, with no rashes or a bumps, and has a healthy shiny coat.

Recently vaccinated and had her teeth floated.

I’ve tried different cinch materials (mohair, alpaha, and neoprene) and different pads.

She doesn’t scratch any more often than a normal horse when she’s hanging out in the pasture or on the ground.

Bugs are present, and she is sensitive to them, but she’s exhibited the behavior in completely bug free zones.

Like I said, the behavior comes and goes and I can’t seem to identify a trigger. I guess it happens more often when it’s hot out or she gets sweaty, but she’s definitely done the same thing during short winter rides.

Think it could be an evasion technique that she pulls out when she doesn’t want to do something? After all, if she’s scratching, she’s not working.

But if that’s the case, why does she continue to bite at her sides after I unsaddle?

Great minds of COTH, any thoughts?

ETA: She sees a chiropractor a few times a year, and I don’t think she’s ever had a rib out of place. She did have some mild NQR issues in her hind end, and had her SI injected. It seems unlikely, but could pain somewhere manifest as itchiness? Like a nerve thing? Saddle fitter says saddle fits fine.

[OverandOnward]

First, I think a horse that is biting at the girth during a ride is telling the humans something authentic. It is a matter of listening to her and figuring out what it is. I do believe a horse can learn to replicate odd behaviors when the horse believes there is a benefit to it, and certainly they can learn to bite, even at the girth. But what you are describing isn’t that common.

Second, I tell certain riding friends that YES, they taught their horse to sneeze. And cough, hack, snort and carry on like a 6-packs-a-day smoker, all during a ride. Horse did it naturally a few times, and voila, every time, loose reins and cessation of work. The longer the nasal explosives continue, the longer the break. Now horse does extended displays during every ride at horse’s own convenience. This is not uncommon at all!

[tbchick84]

I’m thinking maybe the act of exercising works up oils in her skin which create the itching? Does she work up a sweat easily?

[microbovine]

What happens when you ride her bareback?

[Showbizz]

Yes. I had a young Fresian in training this spring that would stop and itch when presented with work that was mentally difficult for her. She would itch her face on her front legs. I allowed it for a few training sessions, enough to recognize what it was, then pushed her through it. She quickly stopped doing it altogether.

[arapaloosa_lady]

What happens when you ask her to work through it?

Itching can definitely be a learned behavior to avoid work - plenty of lesson horses have learned this with novice riders. It’s hard to tell whether it is in your case without seeing it happen. What happens when a pro rides?

[Punkie]

It’s possible that the ring of your cinch (sorry if that’s not the right term, I only ride hunt seat!) is impinging upon an abdominal vein (shown here: https://www.facebook.com/119770638033143/photos/a.181345695208970.46008.119770638033143/808047389205461/). I am not saying that this is definitely the cause or if this illustration has medical merit, but it was the first thing that came to mind when I read your post. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the anatomy could verify!

As to the face rubbing, I agree with other posters who say that this is a learned habit. My old equitation horse - to this very day - will stop to rub his face when we would take a short walk break between trotting and cantering while warming up. So long as I gave him that one concession, he would not try it again. And if we were at a show, he would do it during our warmup and never try it in the ring. If I didn’t let him get his scratching in, however, he would continue to try to stop dead and yank the reins out of my hands. No amount of correction would fully stop the behavior, so my trainer and I agreed that we could live with that quirk as it never interfered with showing!

[Malda]

My pony would start rubbing his nose after working for awhile, and definitely when we were done. It turns out he has photo-sensitivity and pain in the trigeminal nerve area. He’s not a head shaker, but sometimes had episodes after riding where he’d lie down and alternately rub his nose then the right side of his face. He’s wearing a Guardian Mask now and is doing fine.

“The face rubbing will often be accompanied by rooting, where she’ll shove her nose down before scratching. Sometimes the scratching will occur for just a few seconds and sometimes it’ll go on for the duration of our ride.”

Similar to what my pony was doing. Don’t know about the biting the cinch area, he didn’t do that.

[cayuse]

The face rubbing and the rooting can be symptoms of head shaking syndrome. I have a mare with this and this is how it presented with her. In her case it is photic. You can try and see if this might be the problem by working the horse in the sun both with and without a fly mask on and if the horse improves while wearing the mask you may indeed have a photic headshaker. That was one of the things we did to figure out our pony’s problem, along with a vet exam.
As Malda said above it seems to originate from trigeminal nerve pain. It can also be triggered by wind and can be seasonal. Our pony is bothered from April around late September.
I hope you get things sorted out soon with your girl.

[OverandOnward]

Face-rubbing can classify with snorting/sneezing as learned, especially as both get something the horse automatically tries to take anyway - control of loose reins. Face-rubbing has to wait for a break determined by the rider. A horse can continue to work and snort at the same time. This is easy to overcome.

But … this is true as well … some face-rubbing is authentic and a horse can be truly miserable with the wrong bridle and/or bit …

[QUOTE=cayuse;8200691]
The face rubbing and the rooting can be symptoms of head shaking syndrome. I have a mare with this and this is how it presented with her. In her case it is photic. You can try and see if this might be the problem by working the horse both with and without a fly mask on and if the horse improves while wearing the mask you may indeed have a photic headshaker.
As Malda said above it seems to originate from trigeminal nerve pain. It can also be triggered by wind and can be seasonal.
I hope you get things sorted out soon with your girl.[/QUOTE]

My horse was major face-rubber when I got him. I was able to sort out to my own satisfaction how much was evasion and how much was truly discomfort.

Switched to a Miklem bridle and the face-rubbing came to a stop. Immediately. He forgot all about it.

Some amateurs and juniors seem to think it is impolite not to allow the horse to scratch and/or clear their nose, whenever the horse wants to do so, for as long as the horse wants to do so. The horse figures this out quickly since, quite frankly, it’s one of the most consistent things some riders do (compared with actual aids and rewards). :winkgrin:

[DJohn]

Some people I know have trained their horses to do this! Not on purpose of course, but the horse gets loose rein and a break when it scratches the corner of the mouth on the leg. My horse did it a few times, before I went to “thumping” him with my legs when he tried it.

I understand the itching the girth part though. I get very itchy when I sweat, so I could see a horse might as well where the girth is. I get especially itchy under my bra, so I would even compare that to a girth! Let her scratch her belly, it truly is itchy!

[drawstraws]

This was one of the first symptoms of my headshaker as well, at least the facerubbing on his legs. We even almost took a header one time because he decided to rub his face on his front leg mid-canter stride and almost went down. He doesn’t have a girth problem while working but I do have to be very careful while tacking up as he can kind of freeze up and if I don’t walk him forward a couple of steps out of the cross ties I risk him blowing up.

[sirbeastmom]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

We went on a brief and easy ride this morning (when it was cooler) and there was no reaching around to bite at the cinch. She did rub her face two or three times, but there was a pesky gnat, so she gets a pass. I used a neoprene cinch, set about two inches further back than normal, and I stretched out her front legs to make sure no skin was pinched.

As always, though, she scratched her girth area the second the saddle came off. Here’s a video of her doing it. Weird, right?

Interesting thoughts about head shaking syndrome. I’ll see what happens when I ride with a fly mask.

[cayuse]

Oh is she CUTE! That blaze is wonderful.

[CactusFlower]

She might just not like the feeling of sweat where the girth sits. Some horses react weird to water or sweat down their legs, I could see the same thing happening in this case… Hence why she scratches it when the girth comes off even though it doesn’t get her out of work. Glad to hear she’s doing better though!

[enjoytheride]

My new mare stopped DEAD in her tracks in the middle of a 20m trot circle to scratch her face. She got firmly spanked. It’s not an evasion as much as lack of discipline. Even if she is itchy she can still soldier on for a few more minutes. I think you will find that if you stop allowing her to dictate when she can stop and have a break she will stop doing it. I’m fine with letting them scratch when the work is done, or when YOU decide to take a break.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=sirbeastmom;8200786]
…
As always, though, she scratched her girth area the second the saddle came off. Here’s a video of her doing it. Weird, right?
…[/QUOTE]

Pretty pony! Wow, she is seriously flexible …

Honestly, I think she has a reason - I think she really itches. Or feels something. When they scratch that much AFTER the ride is over there isn’t so much reward for it, other than relief of whatever is bothering her.

She is working hard on specific spots, not a generalized scratch as is common with a horse that is just refreshing the skin after the pressure of the tack is off.

Do you bath her often, and if so, with soap? I wonder if scrubbing those areas and keeping her as clean as possible would help her.

Radical suggestion but if you shaved those specific spots, you could get a look at her skin condition in those areas. Shave around it a bit to compare the skin that doesn’t have a problem. Might have to wait till it has begun growing back to ride again, though.

The answer to this might come down to some sort of topical treatment to do away with whatever is bothering her. Have you mentioned this to your vet, has the vet had a look?

[GrayCatFarm]

Is it directed only to one side?

[butiwantedapony]

I don’t think this is learned in this case - th video shows her fairly aggressively scratching with no tack on, when the work is done.

It could be anxiety… I had a tb mare who would rub her head on her legs during work when she felt stressed. She was a lazy/quiet horse and showed no other signs of anxiety so it took awhile to figure out - but if I let her relax on a loose rein and chill do a minute it would subside. If I tried to push her through it she would continue to try to shiver her head down again and again…

I’m going to guess she finds something itchy/uncomfortable… Does her saddle fit?

[SmartAlex]

My horse uses it evasively too. Scratching an itch is WAY higher on his list of priorities than anything else we’re working on. He has been known to pull up to bite a fly (can’t say I blame him) but he will work through the more casual itches.

I always make sure he has good fly repellent on. If the biting flies are particularly bad (you know when that is because they’ll be after you too) then I will pull up until we deal with whatever Bomber Fly has us in it’s sights. He also wears his “knat hat” (ear net). He prefers to be clean shaven (the wind in his whiskers can set off head shaking/nose blowing).

In short, I understand. Sometimes it can wait. Sometimes it can’t.