JAIRS filly: Marble Cake - where does the color come from?

[beowulf]

This popped up on my FB feed, but I can’t seem to view the million comments…

http://db.netkeiba.com/?pid=picture&type=o&id=34478"

The dam:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/shirayukihime
http://www.pedigreequery.com/marble+cake3

Where did the color that Marble Cake expresses come from? Her dam is registered as white (?) with the JC Is she a max sabino?

Is it from Halo? Looks like the dam, Shirayukihime, has had several foals with color… ! But Shirayukime’s parents are black and bay… how did that work?!

[ladyj79]

Because Jockey Club for most of its history (continuing today?) didn’t register foals as the color they actually were, but instead as the color they would be…less markings and dilutions. A friend of mine breeds color tbs for race and sport, and the lengthy and detailed descriptions of markings on the papers to avoid saying “pinto” are seriously lyrical masterpieces–much different from the pedigree query description “Color: White with some brown spots.” Which is hilarious.

[PeteyPie]

Did you see the photo of the dam on her pedigree page? If you click on the information circle next to her name, you will find this comment:
“All white Dominant White mare probably base Black.”

http://www.pedigreequery.com/shirayukihime

I don’t know about color genetics but I’m sure the dam’s coloring is the source of the interesting combo.

As for the Marble Cake and her dam’s color registrations being white, I read on CoTH a while back that the jockey club only has certain choices which are not up-to-date with modern knowledge of genetics, that it goes by phenotype rather than genotype. So her genetic color could be one thing, but if she looks like a white horse, that’s what she is called, not perlino or cremello or albino or whatever name is genetically correct. This is my understanding, anyway.

[beowulf]

yes, i did see the photo. i’m assuming she base black and max sabino, considering her sire (SS) is black. but where did the sabino come from? i am not a genetics guru.

my OP is really asking where did shirayukihime get the color? halo?

[Drvmb1ggl3]

You need to amend the thread title. Marble Cake is not registered with the JC. She’s registered in the JAIRS.

[Sempiternal]

She probably has one of the white spotting (formerly known as dominant white) genes on chestnut.

ETA: There are 20 known variations of white spotting. White spotting is a mutation of the KIT gene, which is unstable, so there will probably be more variations to come.

[Twisting]

Sabino1 isn’t found in TB’s. She is most likely one of the myriad of dominant whites out there. Though there really isn’t much difference between sabino and the dominant whites. They are all mutations of the same gene.

[sprite]

I think it’s the northern dancer blood, but I could easily be mistaken.

[mht]

If you really want to know, go to the Color section in the Pedigree Query forums. Jorge, who is the color guru, will be able to give you some insight.

[JB]

Assuming the Pedigreequery is the right filly, and Shirayukihime is indeed her dam, then that’s a known (tested) Dominant White/White spotting family, and the filly in question is DW. She (Shirayukihime) is a F1 DW - she is the first mutation of that family, and she passes it on fairly reliably.

Yukichan is probably her most famous white foal, but White Vessel is up there too.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/shirayukihime

[Cherry]

I say it’s from Halo–I believe his sons and daughters often pass on those splashy markings. I think one of the breeders who used to post on COTH had a couple of Hailo granddaughters who threw color.

Edited to add: the breeder I’m referring to is Norsire Farm. Several of her mares had Halo in their pedigrees. The other mares had The Axe in their pedigrees. :yes:

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=JB;7706369]
Assuming the Pedigreequery is the right filly, and Shirayukihime is indeed her dam, then that’s a known (tested) Dominant White/White spotting family, and the filly in question is DW. She (Shirayukihime) is a F1 DW - she is the first mutation of that family, and she passes it on fairly reliably.

Yukichan is probably her most famous white foal, but White Vessel is up there too.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/shirayukihime[/QUOTE]

yes but where did Shirayukihime get it?>? Just a random mutation?? It wouldn’t be passed if it was just a mutation would it?

[morganmare]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7706462]
yes but where did Shirayukihime get it?>? Just a random mutation?? It wouldn’t be passed if it was just a mutation would it?[/QUOTE]

Follow the grey’s back to the Irish horse The Tetrarch. He appears to be chestnut with white spots. (Picture is b&w so can’t tell for sure). He goes back to Birdcatcher who goes back to Alcocks Arabian. AA appears to have spots or some sort of pattern over his withers, or just behind his withers.
If you go further back on the dams side you will see a sire called Curwen Bay Barb. He’s also shown to have spots over/behind his withers.
Leeds Arabian is depicted with the same spots too. So it didn’t seem that uncommon from the sires that we’re brought to England back in the late 1600’s early? 1700’s.

[mumtaz]

Marble Cake gets her color from her dam, Shirayukihime, a famous “dominant white.” Shirayukihime represents a unique mutation of the KIT gene, hence her coat, and she is the well-spring of the W14 family. So far, at least 20 mutations of dominant white (W) have been identified (now usually referred to as “white spotting” since sabino seems to be part of the mix as well). All of her foals to date have inherited this pattern—some are nearly all white like their dam, some have patches of color like Marble Cake.

[JB]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7706462]
yes but where did Shirayukihime get it?>? Just a random mutation?? It wouldn’t be passed if it was just a mutation would it?[/QUOTE]

Dominant White/White Spotting is on the KIT gene, which is a pretty unstable gene as far as mutations go. It mutates quite frequently. There are now 21 known testable (though not all publicly available) DW mutations. It’s occurred in lots of breeds. So yes, pretty random, but these types are those that actually make a visual difference. I’m sure there are exponentially more mutations of KIT that we never see because they don’t do anything.

Roan is a KIT mutation. Tobiano is a KIT mutation

Once there’s a genetic mutation, it behaves the same as any other gene - it’s passed on, or it’s not. HYPP is a mutation. HERDA is a mutation. DW is a mutation. Frame Overo is a mutation. Everything that’s not a plain old boring bay dun is actually a mutation

[summerhorse]

Shirayukihime is the origin of the white spotting in her family. She is the first one that mutated (so to speak) in the womb and once that happened it is a dominant gene (The white spotting I mean). So that is where the color came from, not from any other horse in her pedigree. She is an excellent color producer too.

The Tetrarch was a steel gray (as in not dappled) with chubari spots (those are those big white splotches some greys get). I don’t know what color he was underneath the grey but I’ve never heard him referred to as any other color but grey so I suspect he was born dark or darkened up quickly as a foal.

It used to be thought that the white TBs were impure or unsound and they were usually culled pretty severely (and quietly). Some breeders did fight and got their horses registered. I wonder how many really good racing white TBs got knocked on the head as babies? Pintos and dilutes too.

[Hippolyta]

Think she is more of a ripple ice cream than cake ")

good name, though.

[camohn]

My Hail the Pirates mare had some funky white on her so Hail to Reason snd The Axe probably contributed some. star de Naskra isn’t really considered a source of color…BUT: of late I have seen two geldings that looked splash overo in coat pattern and both were hoist the flag/ star de Naskra crosses. I have my ( all white/ dominant white) Hoist The Flag bred mare bred to Medallist ( star de Naskra ) so hoping to something similar ! Will see what we get in March…

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Marble Cake’s half sister, Buchiko, broke her maiden today in very impressive style. Here’s the replay.

Her handlers have a sense of humor… https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B00VoCuCQAAoEa9.jpg:large

Hopefully Buchiko will go on to be a graded stakes winner like her other half sister, Yukichan, who was G2 winner on the dirt.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;7951025]
Marble Cake’s half sister, Buchiko, broke her maiden today in very impressive style. Here’s the replay.

Her handlers have a sense of humor… https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B00VoCuCQAAoEa9.jpg:large

Hopefully Buchiko will go on to be a graded stakes winner like her other half sister, Yukichan, who was G2 winner on the dirt.[/QUOTE]

thanks for the links - and what an impressive finish!

color aside, i do like the way Yukichan moves… I thought she had a really nice gallop.