Jeremy Steinberg - Between the Rounds Year in Review

[MorganSercu]

@Knights Mom

Yes but that’s for folks who are there with their children. SS is mandating the training for ALL folks, even AAs who are NEVER around children.

I’m not being adversarial towards SS, I’m just pointing out the example is often not applicable when discussing SS.

I get it. One point is that it is also for adults whose kids are not participants. I got roped into volunteering for fundraising activities at the high school AFTER my kids had graduated because they needed adults who could help (zombie volunteers we called ourselves). So we still had to take the annual class. I was using it as an example for why I believe that the parent or guardian of a minor USEF member should be required to take SafeSport training too. Also, if there are volunteers at horse shows, don’t they also have to take the training? Regardless of their membership status? I don’t recall ever attending an all-adults horse show. There was always a young rider or groom somewhere in the scene.

I’m not around kids either. I don’t even encourage or want them around my animals. It is too easy for a kid to not listen to what you say, get kicked and then find yourself sued into a cardboard box by a parent. I don’t want to have to hire a lawyer to draw up release forms if a kid should visit our home with their parents, get hurt somehow and the release form doesn’t provide much legal protection anyway.

Another thought I had is that SafeSport investigations do not rise to the level of a criminal case. So someone can be banned without being convicted. An organization can have a different standard for its members. With that in mind, if more cases are dropped does that mean USEF still has to accept that person’s money in the future? If they don’t ban or suspend them, are they legally permitted to simply blacklist them (sorry for the term, I don’t know if it has been updated)?

“We don’t want your money”, essentially.

Meanwhile, I hope trainers are mindful that if they observe troubling signs of any sort of abuse exhibited by a minor student, they should report it. To get the kid evaluated. SafeSport may not be designed to look into any abuse other than sexual, but there are other entities that will.

It is far from perfect but it can be improved.

[Denali6298]

The biggest reason for Safe Sport that gets lost in the shuffle of people saying it’s an inconvenience, “I’m not around kids,” “Why do I have to take it and these people don’t,” is it forces the USEF to DO SOMETHING. And by do something I mean forces them to ban horrible people who do horrible things to children. If the NGB’s actually did something in these cases, Safe Sport wouldn’t be a thing. The powers that be, the friends of these people made it so people feared retribution.

People are still being harassed by the “team” helping the sanctioned. What’s even more disgusting, is friends of these people who get banned eventually, after the persons death admit the person engaged in the behavior.

What’s more disturbing is the people trying to get rid of Safe Sport have aligned themselves with convicted (as in criminal court) child molesters.

Safe Sport is clearly needed.

For whoever suggested kids could tell adults so they could go to the police, the article I linked about someone I know molested a 6 month old? How would that 6 month old tell it’s parents?

[MorganSercu]

@Denali6298

For whoever suggested kids could tell adults so they could go to the police, the article I linked about someone I know molested a 6 month old? How would that 6 month old tell it’s parents?

Presumably the parents or someone else noticed blood in the infant’s diaper. Or other signs of physical injury. At least that is my guess.

How young is the youngest member of USEF? Is there a minimum age before a child can be a member of USEF?

I found this but I don’t know if I’m looking at an old rulebook or overlooking something:

Drivers under 14 must be accompanied by a knowledgeable adult horseman. All other persons on the carriage must have reached their 14th birthday. Exception: in a driving trial the navigator groom must be at least 10 at training and prelim.

[MorganSercu]

@Cowgirl

HUH? My trainer friend who is considering not renewing USET to avoid SS is because she spends enormous time trying to find leases for her kiddo clients. The owners of the horses are bagging because they don’t want to do the 2 hour training…training that the kid’s parents don’t have to do. Why should they spend two hours of their precious time when they are freaking donating a horse to a kid to learn on?

Have they said they would be willing to undergo the training if the parent(s) of the kid(s) also had to undergo the training? I bet that would feel more fair to them.

[Denali6298]

@MorganSercu

Presumably the parents or someone else noticed blood in the infant’s diaper. Or other signs of physical injury. At least that is my guess.

How young is the youngest member of USEF? Is there a minimum age before a child can be a member of USEF?

I found this but I don’t know if I’m looking at an old rulebook or overlooking something:

Presumably, you didn’t read the article and which illustrated my point of how people/parents didn’t know. It says what the evidence was.

And you missed the part of the first post that said no one who knew this guy, who’s families hung out together, who let him babysit their kids had a clue. Shock doesn’t begin to cover it when we found out.

[Denali6298]

@Cowgirl

HUH? My trainer friend who is considering not renewing USET to avoid SS is because she spends enormous time trying to find leases for her kiddo clients. The owners of the horses are bagging because they don’t want to do the 2 hour training…training that the kid’s parents don’t have to do. Why should they spend two hours of their precious time when they are freaking donating a horse to a kid to learn on?

And that’s their choice. Not something I’m going to get upset about. No one is required to join the USEF. If people would rather not lease a horse to a child over a training module that’s their prerogative. I think it’s a silly overreaction but to each their own.

[MorganSercu]

@Denali6298

Presumably, you didn’t read the article and which illustrated my point of how people/parents didn’t know. It says what the evidence was.

I read it. It doesn’t explain what forensic evidence was gathered that linked the perpetrator to the 6 month old. As a parent, you are supposed to notice injuries in that area. Blood isn’t normal, you should take them to a physician immediately.

The case arose when an undercover FBI agent alerted the Fallon Police Department to Alexander and his plans to sexually assault a seven year old child. The Fallon Police Department, with the aid of the FBI, and the Northern Nevada Cyber Center quickly obtained and executed a search warrant on the residence.

Later, forensic analysis by the Northern Nevada Cyber Center of evidence seized at the residence and other locations, lead to evidence that Alexander had committed sexual assaults on the seven year old child and a six month old child.

[Denali6298]

@MorganSercu

I read it. It doesn’t explain what forensic evidence was gathered that linked the perpetrator to the 6 month old. As a parent, you are supposed to notice injuries in that area. Blood isn’t normal, you should take them to a physician immediately.

My apologies the specifics were in another article. He was producing and distributing kiddie porn. The task force believed it was homemade and so they set up a sting and got a hold of his computer. Physical trauma doesn’t always happen. So how would a parent know if there were no indications of trauma? I know people who are privy to the details, but I don’t need to know the details. I DO know he wasn’t on the radar because of something not right noticed by a parent.

[MorganSercu]

@Denali6298

My apologies the specifics were in another article. He was producing and distributing kiddie porn. The task force believed it was homemade and so they set up a sting and got a hold of his computer. Physical trauma doesn’t always happen. So how would a parent know if there were no indications of trauma? I know people who are privy to the details, but I don’t need to know the details. I DO know he wasn’t on the radar because of something not right noticed by a parent.

Very scary and sad. The 6 month old couldn’t discuss anything obviously, but the 6/7 year old may have mentioned playing strange games with others or for someone. Some of them do, some don’t. Never hurts to ask a kid what they did that evening. “Tell me about the movie”, “Did you have pizza?”, “What games did you play?”, “Did So and So read you a story?”, etc. No guarantees but it sometimes pays to discuss the evening with them before it gets hazy.

[Denali6298]

@MorganSercu

Very scary and sad. The 6 month old couldn’t discuss anything obviously, but the 6/7 year old may have mentioned playing strange games with others or for someone. Some of them do, some don’t. Never hurts to ask a kid what they did that evening. “Tell me about the movie”, “Did you have pizza?”, “What games did you play?”, “Did So and So read you a story?”, etc. No guarantees but it sometimes pays to discuss the evening with them before it gets hazy.

It definitely is. I do know my friends never suspected abuse with their kids. That’s not saying it didn’t happen it’s not saying it did either. My other point is, sometimes you just don’t know.

[sascha]

@MorganSercu

Very scary and sad. The 6 month old couldn’t discuss anything obviously, but the 6/7 year old may have mentioned playing strange games with others or for someone. Some of them do, some don’t. Never hurts to ask a kid what they did that evening. “Tell me about the movie”, “Did you have pizza?”, “What games did you play?”, “Did So and So read you a story?”, etc. No guarantees but it sometimes pays to discuss the evening with them before it gets hazy.

You do understand how abuse works, yes? Oh wait, clearly not. No guarantees is pretty damned weak language. Children are often sworn to secrecy on pain of something worse happening to them, their parents, their friends, their pets. It doesn’t matter how you ask. If that child feels that their suffering is the lesser evil, lips will be sealed.

[MorganSercu]

@sascha

You do understand how abuse works, yes? Oh wait, clearly not. No guarantees is pretty damned weak language. Children are often sworn to secrecy on pain of something worse happening to them, their parents, their friends, their pets. It doesn’t matter how you ask. If that child feels that their suffering is the lesser evil, lips will be sealed.

I am very much aware of how it works. Plus I know that the better a parent is, the more they have already discussed various topics with their children and LISTENED to them in the past, the more likely that child is to speak up. Or at least answer questions more truthfully because they trust their parent more than someone else. You have to build that foundation of trust from the beginning. If someone else can circumvent it - then the parent needs to do a lot of looking at where they ceded their position. This applies to parents who taught their children that priests could do no wrong, doctors are always right, etc.

So again, it is very much in the best interest of children for parents of USEF minors to take SafeSport too.

[Denali6298]

@MorganSercu

I am very much aware of how it works. Plus I know that the better a parent is, the more they have already discussed various topics with their children and LISTENED to them in the past, the more likely that child is to speak up. Or at least answer questions more truthfully because they trust their parent more than someone else. You have to build that foundation of trust from the beginning. If someone else can circumvent it - then the parent needs to do a lot of looking at where they ceded their position. This applies to parents who taught their children that priests could do no wrong, doctors are always right, etc.

So again, it is very much in the best interest of children for parents of USEF minors to take SafeSport too.

My friends I assure you are the types that are very much aware and talk to their children. They are very much present for school functions and sports. No one waited for the verdict. We blasted the arrest on Facebook so everyone knew and cut off all contact.

[sascha]

@MorganSercu

I am very much aware of how it works. Plus I know that the better a parent is, the more they have already discussed various topics with their children and LISTENED to them in the past, the more likely that child is to speak up. Or at least answer questions more truthfully because they trust their parent more than someone else. You have to build that foundation of trust from the beginning. If someone else can circumvent it - then the parent needs to do a lot of looking at where they ceded their position. This applies to parents who taught their children that priests could do no wrong, doctors are always right, etc.

So again, it is very much in the best interest of children for parents of USEF minors to take SafeSport too.

I all for parents taking safe sport. What I am against, is throwing blame at parents for the abuse their child has endured. You just can’t do that. You can’t say, you were a crappy parent and that’s why your child was abused. The absolute best, most educated parents can miss it. They can allso downplay it and not believe it because it ruins their world view.

[MorganSercu]

@sascha

I all for parents taking safe sport. What I am against, is throwing blame at parents for the abuse their child has endured. You just can’t do that. You can’t say, you were a crappy parent and that’s why your child was abused. The absolute best, most educated parents can miss it. They can allso downplay it and not believe it because it ruins their world view.

Blaming the parent is not my intent. Parents whose children have been harmed DO second-guess themselves and they DO sift through the past to see what they did or didn’t do that let this happen. Even if there was no behavior to spot that indicated that this person was a dangerous individual. However, parents have the primary responsibility to their children and taking prudent steps to minimize the risks of a kid being groomed by someone who is predatory or abusive.

If you look at the statistics, close acquaintances and family are the most likely sexual abusers. For “general” abuse (also addressed by SafeSport) almost 80% of the time the abuser is a parent or family member. It isn’t easy - you can’t wrap them in bubble wrap and be so overprotective that the second they escape they go mad with freedom (I saw that happen to a lot of preachers’ and cops’ kids when I was growing up and as a young adult - it is a LOT more marked now with the helicopter/snowplow parents), nor should you ignore what your kid is doing and with whom. It’s hard. Even parents who are involved or even present can overlook the signs and/or their kids don’t discuss bad things that happen to them. The kids who have been given the opportunities to screw up in small ways and learn from their mistakes tend to develop better judgment along the way than those whose lives were proscribed for them. They also have more confidence because they have a better “toolbox” when dealing with life in general. There is no perfect answer or solution. Sadly, kids don’t emerge with a handy-dandy 3x5 index card with instructions on how to best raise THAT child.

I digress.

In the meantime - minor children do not sign up for and pay the fees for USEF. The adults in their lives do. So it is the perfect moment in time for said adult (the one paying the membership fee) to have to take the training as a prerequisite for their child’s membership. USEF may never choose to implement this, but they could if they resolved to do so.

There are plenty of AA’s who don’t spend much, if any, time with minors. They have to take the training. The owners of the horses registered with USEF have to take the training - even if they never clap eyes on a junior rider in person. So why not the parents who are paying for the kid’s participation? Fair is fair and it means everyone is on the same page - at least in theory.

[Denali6298]

@MorganSercu I think we all agree parents should take the training and maybe that should be a recommendation to the USEF. However people who refuse because the parents don’t and use that as the latest excuse of why not is just sick. It’s why I shared the article. You cannot blame the parents.

People are more than welcome to live life not caring about what they see happening around them. The USEF says not at our shows because Congress has to step in. It took an act of Congress to encourage people to not look away.

[MorganSercu]

However people who refuse because the parents don’t and use that as the latest excuse of why not is just sick. It’s why I shared the article. You cannot blame the parents.

If people feel they are being burdened with a responsibility above and beyond what the parent of a minor is asked to do to be a member of USEF then they will vote with their wallets.

You can disparage them for being resentful all you wish, but it doesn’t change a thing. Shaming people is a very poor motivator if you want to change minds or behavior. USEF would be smart to address it now. Demographics are not on the side of horse owners as it is. Concede the point to the AA’s and horse owners who are letting others ride their horses but who are not competing themselves. It is an actof goodwill that may increase membership numbers and broaden the demographics of participants.

If it’s only 2 hours or so for the adult members then it shouldn’t be an unbearable burden or imposition for the parents either. Or however long it takes to do the training with a decent internet connection.

[Denali6298]

@MorganSercu

If people feel they are being burdened with a responsibility above and beyond what the parent of a minor is asked to do to be a member of USEF then they will vote with their wallets.

You can disparage them for being resentful all you wish, but it doesn’t change a thing. Shaming people is a very poor motivator if you want to change minds or behavior. USEF would be smart to address it now. Demographics are not on the side of horse owners as it is. Concede the point to the AA’s and horse owners who are letting others ride their horses but who are not competing themselves. It is an actof goodwill that may increase membership numbers and broaden the demographics of participants.

If it’s only 2 hours or so for the adult members then it shouldn’t be an unbearable burden or imposition for the parents either. Or however long it takes to do the training with a decent internet connection.

You are completely missing the point. The person in the article I linked I know him. Worked and was friends with him for five years. Others before me, longer. He babysat for my friends. Parents don’t always know no matter how involved they are!!!

To have some one be so inconvenienced by a training module is mind blowing. The best parents in the world could miss it. We all did. Do you want me to put you into to contact with the families who are left wondering? I will. And you and Cowgirl and everyone else can ask them WHY they didn’t know he was doing things like that to children.

It’s an issue in society and it’s up to society to fix it. That may mean I have to step in to help a kid whose not mine, and lord knows I don’t like kids, because it’s the right thing to do.

ETA: Sorry to come off angry but I really wish people would just not be members if they think it’s unfair or whatever. Just don’t be a member. If they are that burdened by society than I just assume they stick to their farms and their life.

[bip]

People really cling to this idea that if you are “good” bad things won’t happen to you (or your kids). Predators count on that.

[Denali6298]

I will shame people all day long for feeling inconvenienced for taking a CBT that prevents people like my former friend and coworker for doing what they did. I will shame people all day long for not doing the right thing. And that’s what they are complaining about. They are complaining about the fact that if they see something they have to say something. I very much will shame them and say “shame on you.” I will say shame on you when it’s about showing your luxury sport pet or not.