Jock Paget's Clifton Promise has tested positive to Reserpine

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=JER;7217427]
Right. So please explain Sheik Mohammed’s operation to me. Or any of the racing trainers or competitive riders who get set down for banned substances. Or Lance Armstrong or Marion Jones or any of the other people who would ‘never!!!’ use PEDs who used PEDs.

As I said pages earlier, I’m not thinking in terms of ‘guilt’ or ‘innocence’. Reserpine was found in the A sample of Cliftons Promise and Pinot. The B samples will be tested. If those are positive (or if even one is positive), there needs to be an investigation into how reserpine found its way into their blood supplies.

Doping, at whatever level, is one possible reason. So is cross-contamination, sabotage, mis-labeled or contaminated supplements (see my earlier example), an error at a compounding pharmacy (this happened to a swimmer in Australia FWIW), or a failure of the test/testing procedures.

If the horses were given reserpine for a therapeutic reason but it did not clear the system in the advised time, there should be a record of that. However, neither rider has made this claim so we can cross that off the list.

The fact that there are two connected horses with the same positive result should make it easier to narrow down the list of possibilities.[/QUOTE]

JER–I’m just going to have to stop after this because you clearly are not understanding what I’m saying.

The sheik having those on the plane was an issue because he didn’t declare it in customs. Having it in your vet kit for horses traveling isn’t a crime. Competiting on it is but travelling with horses long term it isn’t unheard of to have it in case a horse gets hurt and will not be competing.

It is a useful drug that could be used by others not connected with these horses which caused cross contanimation.

It is also drug where there can be false postitives depending on the test used. The cheaper test often has false postitives. I’m hoping that is the situation here.

ALL I was saying–as well as others—is that this is NOT the drug one would use to intentionally enhance performance in UL eventers who competing under FEI rules. I’m not even saying people don’t cheat and do bad things…just that this drug in particular is not the one intentionally used for that purpose.

But with zero tollerance rules…motive doesn’t matter. Even if not intentional…JP will be screwed. Only if he can prove a false positive or that someone intentionally drugged the horse will he be able to avoid suspension. And if the traces are tiny…I for one find that unfortunate.

[Equibrit]

[QUOTE=SlamDunk;7217535]
Rakelin was actually found to be the cause of one of the reserpine violations in 2011. QUOTE]

Rakelin is a brand name for reserpine. Just as Banamine is a brand name for flunixin meglumine.

[SlamDunk]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7217612]

[QUOTE=SlamDunk;7217535]Rakelin was actually found to be the cause of one of the reserpine violations in 2011. QUOTE]

Rakelin is a brand name for reserpine. Just as Banamine is a brand name for flunixin meglumine.[/QUOTE]

Oh I see the tribunal made it seem different. The rider was incredibly stupid then

[JER]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7217573]

The sheik having those on the plane was an issue because he didn’t declare it in customs. [/QUOTE]

Sheikh Mohammed’s doping issues go far beyond the drugs seized on the aircraft.

Sheikh Mohammed was banned from endurance riding by the International Equestrian Federation for six months in 2009 after a horse he had ridden tested positive for a steroid, and horses trained in stables owned by the Maktoum family have been implicated in 24 doping cases in the sport since 2005.

This year, Mohammed’s Moulton Paddocks stables in Newmarket was the site of the biggest doping scandal in British racing history when it emerged that trainer Mahmood al-Zarooni had administered anabolic steroids to 22 racehorses owned by the Sheikh.

This would point to something other than just carrying drugs in a vet kit.

Also, it’s worth pointing out that when the Sheikh’s endurance horse was busted for doping in 2009 (see here), it had something else besides a steroid in its blood: guanabenz.

So what’s guanabenz used for? It lowers blood pressure. In humans, it decreases heart rate by approximately 5 beats per minute. You can see how that might help you get through that vet gate in endurance.

Of course, the Sheikh was ‘angered and appalled’ by the 2013 doping violations, just as he was in 2009. And the Sheikh is a very intelligent man.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=JER;7217350]
My point was that reserpine still turns up positives, even though it’s well-known as a banned substance in all disciplines.[/QUOTE]

Got it.
Point was not clear to me in your earlier post.

[vineyridge]

If you listened to the NZ radio show, Frances Stead, the owner of the Clifton horses, said that reserpine is not a common horse drug–at least to her knowledge. It’s common in the US, but not in the rest of the world.

I’m wondering if a herbal supplement could have been contaminated accidentally during manufacture.

[Foxtrot_s]

Curiouser and curiouser.

When a lot of scientific facts are stated in these discussions, it is helpful if the sources of these facts are stated so we can assess the content and legitimacy.
Anyone can Google…takes work and time … so it is appreciated, but the references should be supplied.

Someone write that book. Did Dick Francis die?

Whoever would knowingly use reserpine on a competition horse?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=JER;7217646]
Sheikh Mohammed’s doping issues go far beyond the drugs seized on the aircraft.

This would point to something other than just carrying drugs in a vet kit.

Also, it’s worth pointing out that when the Sheikh’s endurance horse was busted for doping in 2009 (see here), it had something else besides a steroid in its blood: guanabenz.

So what’s guanabenz used for? It lowers blood pressure. In humans, it decreases heart rate by approximately 5 beats per minute. You can see how that might help you get through that vet gate in endurance.

Of course, the Sheikh was ‘angered and appalled’ by the 2013 doping violations, just as he was in 2009. And the Sheikh is a very intelligent man.[/QUOTE]

I’m not defending the Sheikh…or his trainers. Or why they would or wouldn’t use resurpine.

Just noting that HAVING this drug is not a crime. Using it on a competing horse is a violation of the rules…but just having it in the vet box would not be. But as I said–this is not a drug used in event barns for UL performance enhancement.

There are other things done and used…but not this one for that purpose.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7217573]
JER–I’m just going to have to stop after this because you clearly are not understanding what I’m saying.

The sheik having those on the plane was an issue because he didn’t declare it in customs. Having it in your vet kit for horses traveling isn’t a crime. Competiting on it is but travelling with horses long term it isn’t unheard of to have it in case a horse gets hurt and will not be competing.

It is a useful drug that could be used by others not connected with these horses which caused cross contanimation.

It is also drug where there can be false postitives depending on the test used. The cheaper test often has false postitives. I’m hoping that is the situation here.

ALL I was saying–as well as others—is that this is NOT the drug one would use to intentionally enhance performance in UL eventers who competing under FEI rules. I’m not even saying people don’t cheat and do bad things…just that this drug in particular is not the one intentionally used for that purpose.

But with zero tollerance rules…motive doesn’t matter. Even if not intentional…JP will be screwed. Only if he can prove a false positive or that someone intentionally drugged the horse will he be able to avoid suspension. And if the traces are tiny…I for one find that unfortunate.[/QUOTE]

Actually there were NO horses on the plane and the drugs were in a container labeled Tack (or some such misleading label). The problem was not so much that the drugs were not “declared” but that many of them are banned in the UK and are not allowed to be brought in.

I’m sure, since Sheik M. has set his wife the task of investigating his operations that they’ll get to the bottom of the problem

[Foxtrot_s]

Thinking back - Air Jordan Z came 2nd at the WC in Vegas in 2007 - but was subsequently found to have traces of reserpine. I remember because I had used him for a breeding (unsuccessfully). Could never understand why they used the stuff.

I just checked, Air Jordan died recently but he has a clone to replace him, recently approved by Zangersheide - Air Jordan Alpha Z. Son of Argentinius.

[Blugal]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7217690]
Did Dick Francis die?[/QUOTE]

Sadly, yes. His son Felix, who co-wrote a few of the last novels with him, is now writing on his own. Not quite as good, IMO, but not bad for a quick read.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=skydy;7217727]
Actually there were NO horses on the plane and the drugs were in a container labeled Tack (or some such misleading label). The problem was not so much that the drugs were not “declared” but that many of them are banned in the UK and are not allowed to be brought in.

I’m sure, since Sheik M. has set his wife the task of investigating his operations that they’ll get to the bottom of the problem ;)[/QUOTE]

True…although I saw the list and MOST of the drugs are common ones that most around here have in their barns. Things like banamine, pentosan…and yes, resurpine (although that is not usually a standard, more like you may have some left over from a horse who was being treated with it).

I was surprised that so many were shocked by what he had…only a few of the things listed did I think were unusual. But yes…bringing in banned substances or undeclared substances into any country is bad!

[JER]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7217742]

I was surprised that so many were shocked by what he had…only a few of the things listed did I think were unusual. [/QUOTE]

The shock was due in part to the other recent highly-publicized drug violations and seizure raids at the Sheikh’s UK bases.

He was ‘angered and appalled’ at what was going on in his horse operations, yet months later, he still couldn’t get his minions to adhere to UK law.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7217695]

Just noting that HAVING this drug is not a crime.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I am misremembering, but I thought an earlier post said that HAVING reserpine WAS a crime in the UK
.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Janet;7217760]
Maybe I am misremembering, but I thought an earlier post said that HAVING reserpine WAS a crime in the UK
.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure I trust the EN’s report on it. It was definately a crime to bring it in the way they did.

ETA: I personally was more in shock at the $$$$ involvled. The amount of Tildren he had was worth more than most of my horses… And the stupidity of trying to sneak it in.

[JER]

[QUOTE=Janet;7217760]
Maybe I am misremembering, but I thought an earlier post said that HAVING reserpine WAS a crime in the UK.[/QUOTE]

According to Defra’s site, reserpine is not an authorised verterinary product in the UK.

But it is available in other parts of the world – the US and Australia, for example – and would not be difficult to obtain from a foreign vet or online.

[vineyridge]

I just found a publication that says that reserpine (Rakelin) is only licensed for human use in the UK. So any use in animals would be off label.

I wonder if it’s a licensed medication for horses in NZ.

It’s apparently fairly common for treating human hypertension in Germany.

[Rockin1]

Heroicity was given Reserpine without my knowledge or permission. Several months earlier he had undergone exploratory surgery for gastroenteritis which the vets were unable to diagnose. His recovery was going well and we were looking forward to the next breeding season
One of the side-effects of reserpine, which is not an FDA approved drug, is that it can induce colic. Having only recently used Rakelin( as it is called here in NZ) for the first time on a broodmare and experiencing its effects I would never have considered using it again.
Almost immediately Heroicity had an adverse reaction developed complications and had to be euthanised.

[Foxtrot_s]

Oh I am sorry about that. Herocity was a marvellous horse. What a loss.

[Rockin1]

Thank-you.
We all here thought he was pretty marvellous too. Losing him this way was devastating especially after he had fought so courageously to overcome his previous issue and was recovering so well.