Jock Paget's Clifton Promise has tested positive to Reserpine

[currycomb321]

you guys are so funny. so many of the tricks and new drugs used here to get around the drug rules come from Europe, as do many of the good lameness treatments/drugs we use here. A hunter or jumper rider gets nailed for something like this and it’s all about how that discipline does nothing but drug. An eventer and his trainer/mentor get nailed and it’s all about how someone MUST be sabotaging him!!!

So many of the set downs for Reserpine were from one vet who was giving out a calming supplement…it makes sense to me that two people who train together may be using the same ‘supplement’ . Maybe they didn’t know what was in it or trusted a vet to steer them right, who knows. But the most likely reason that the horses tested positive for Reserpine was because they were given Reserpine.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7217140]
Yes…it can enhance performance at levels that TEST. [/QUOTE]

But if it was picked up on a drug test, then doesn’t that mean it was “at levels that TEST”?

[ellevt]

[QUOTE=yourcolorfuladdiction;7214565]

I’m pretty sure the FEI is more than capable of determining the difference between a weed and a banned substance.[/QUOTE]

You have a lot more faith in the FEI than I do

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7218443]
But if it was picked up on a drug test, then doesn’t that mean it was “at levels that TEST”?[/QUOTE]

My point was it tests. It is an effective drug that can enhance performance but using it will result in a positive test.

I was going to JERs point…yes people do use it because it works. But people do not intentionally use when they could be tested. People have long known that even micro levels it will test…and since this is a prohibited drug, you don’t risk using it to enhance performance. It is not something people generally use even in training as it really does take too long to clear the system and the potential side effects are too risky.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7218495]
My point was it tests. It is an effective drug that can enhance performance but using it will result in a positive test.

I was going to JERs point…yes people do use it because it works. But people do not intentionally use when they could be tested. People have long known that even micro levels it will test…and since this is a prohibited drug, you don’t risk using it to enhance performance. It is not something people generally use even in training as it really does take too long to clear the system and the potential side effects are too risky.[/QUOTE]

BFNE; I’ve always enjoyed your posts. You are usually quick to offer good insight and I enjoy reading what you have to say and what your opinions are. I understand what you are saying (it always tests, it’s easy to test, so why would you do it?) but I think, in this instance, you may be overestimating the general population’s intelligence and foresight. Most people are not as intelligent as you. They will think “I won’t get caught/it wont happen to me” - and often, people overestimate the stupidity of mankind at its whole.

FTR; Not calling JP/CP stupid.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

[QUOTE=ellevt;7218456]
You have a lot more faith in the FEI than I do[/QUOTE]

Honestly, it’s not the FEI but the lab that is approved by the FEI so it’s not just some joe-shmoe lab that your vet might send samples to. These labs are paid the big bucks to be capable of discerning the difference between a weed and a banned substance.

I think it’s a little sad that everyone is hating on the “clean sports act” rather than waiting to find what is responsible for the positive test. The clean sports act is there for an even playing field. It’s not so that people can be lazy, it’s so that the playing field is FAIR. I’d hate for them to change it from zero tolerance to a “minimal accepted level” as then you get into people putting minimum accepted levels of this and that and something else in their horse and suddenly the horse is doped up so much it has an advantage. The point of zero tolerance is to prevent that sort of thing from happening.

I think it sucks that JP’s horse came up with a positive drug test. I hope it’s a lab mistake and the B sample comes back negative, but if it doesn’t then there is room to speculate HOW it got into the horse’s system and honestly: when you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras. If the B test comes back positive I would be more inclined to think that it was given to the horse, most likely accidentally, through cross contamination or a “supplement” rather than some sort of strange story about someone bringing drugs from another country to intentionally sabotage JP’s career and chances of the Grand Slam. Generally people are excited, competitive, but excited about someone being capable of doing that sort of thing. I’d be excited to be competing against someone like that and give him a run for his money, make him work for it. But I doubt sabotage would be high on the list of anyone as it’s the least sportsmanlike think of all (something like a baseball bat to the knee?).

Think about it, to get the drugs in the horse you’d have to travel to the country and then to the competition with the drugs. You’d then have to sneak into the FEI barn while no one is around the horse, and not look suspicious. And honestly, everyone knows everyone and they’d recognize someone “out of place” especially acting suspicious and trying to force something down one of JP’s horse’s throats. And there are ALWAYS people around, even at 3am. It’s not like you can sneak up in the middle of the night and not be noticed.

So although a great novel is being written a few pages back, I’m going to have to crush this theory. Sorry homies.

[BaroquePony]

I ended up with one of the horses that was addicted to Reserpine when the AHSA finally came up with a way to test for it. What a mess.

If the stuff remains in the system for as long as everyone says it does, how does that compare to the amount of time the horses are in the FEI barns?

Could someone have given it to the horses BEFORE they went to the FEI barns … like a few weeks before ??

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;7218543]
I ended up with one of the horses that was addicted to Reserpine when the AHSA finally came up with a way to test for it. What a mess.

If the stuff remains in the system for as long as everyone says it does, how does that compare to the amount of time the horses are in the FEI barns?

Could someone have given it to the horses BEFORE they went to the FEI barns … like a few weeks before ??[/QUOTE]

It’s possible but it’d be even more suspicious if someone wandered on to JP’s farm in Surrey and tried to stuff something down CP’s throat.

I assume, like most UL farms, that at least a worker lives on the farm full time. So it would still be almost impossible. I live in a house by the barn and the horses make noise if you got to the barn, I hear them even in my sleep and would definitely notice something “out of the ordinary” like extra whinnies.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;7218543]
I ended up with one of the horses that was addicted to Reserpine when the AHSA finally came up with a way to test for it. What a mess.

If the stuff remains in the system for as long as everyone says it does, how does that compare to the amount of time the horses are in the FEI barns?

Could someone have given it to the horses BEFORE they went to the FEI barns … like a few weeks before ??[/QUOTE]

Yes.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7218503]
BFNE; I’ve always enjoyed your posts. You are usually quick to offer good insight and I enjoy reading what you have to say and what your opinions are. I understand what you are saying (it always tests, it’s easy to test, so why would you do it?) but I think, in this instance, you may be overestimating the general population’s intelligence and foresight. Most people are not as intelligent as you. They will think “I won’t get caught/it wont happen to me” - and often, people overestimate the stupidity of mankind at its whole.

FTR; Not calling JP/CP stupid.[/QUOTE]

I do generally agree that there are stupid people. But honestly…I’ve been in this event world long enough. A horse like this who just won Badminton…and aimed at Burghely (and competitive) is just not the situation where this is even something they would try.

A crazy ass jumper…who isn’t really competitive…yeah, I could see someone being stupid. Or even buy the endurance use argument for lowering the BP as that is a huge advantage in that sport.

But for UL event horses…this just isn’t the drug they mess with. It doesn’t give the advantage for the risk.

Now having it in some supplement…where they didn’t know it was an ingredient and therefore didn’t know they needed them pulled off if for several months…that is more believable. Still stupid…but more believable.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7218598]
Now having it in some supplement…where they didn’t know it was an ingredient and therefore didn’t know they needed them pulled off if for several months…that is more believable. Still stupid…but more believable.[/QUOTE]

^^THIS.

We should really be more aware of what supplements we are putting in our horses. What the content is, down to the last speck of dust, and is it all LEGAL for what we are doing. I’m sure there are plenty of instances where people have unknowingly given supplements laced with a banned substance (sounds like I’m talking about narcotics lol), but they didn’t get caught or maybe they did.

I think it is fair to say that JP doesn’t know how it got into the horse’s system, meaning that his staff (including vet, farrier, etc) and he himself did not give the horse this drug KNOWINGLY. That does not mean that someone didn’t give the horse the drug UNKNOWINGLY. But unfortunately the FEI doesn’t seem to differentiate to two.

[SlamDunk]

[QUOTE=yourcolorfuladdiction;7218625]
^^THIS.

We should really be more aware of what supplements we are putting in our horses. What the content is, down to the last speck of dust, and is it all LEGAL for what we are doing. I’m sure there are plenty of instances where people have unknowingly given supplements laced with a banned substance (sounds like I’m talking about narcotics lol), but they didn’t get caught or maybe they did.

I think it is fair to say that JP doesn’t know how it got into the horse’s system, meaning that his staff (including vet, farrier, etc) and he himself did not give the horse this drug KNOWINGLY. That does not mean that someone didn’t give the horse the drug UNKNOWINGLY. But unfortunately the FEI doesn’t seem to differentiate to two.[/QUOTE]

Since I am a huge nerd and read a ton of the FEI Tribunal Drug rulings today…

They do differentiate between a horse being given a drug knowingly or unknowingly. For example a few American GP riders were given leeway (one got off with warning, the other with a seemingly shorter ban) because they made a very good case for cross contamination from other barns (which is easier to do in North America because of USEF drug rules being different)

There were also two cases that proved sabotage. One rider got completely off because the farrier did it somehow, although there must have been a lot of proof in that one as there was also a separate criminal case. Another rider proved sabotage via a working student but still got sanctioned since the FEI felt the drug should have been locked up not stored in the fridge.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

[QUOTE=SlamDunk;7218644]
Since I am a huge nerd and read a ton of the FEI Tribunal Drug rulings today…

They do differentiate between a horse being given a drug knowingly or unknowingly. For example a few American GP riders were given leeway (one got off with warning, the other with a seemingly shorter ban) because they made a very good case for cross contamination from other barns (which is easier to do in North America because of USEF drug rules being different)

There were also two cases that proved sabotage. One rider got completely off because the farrier did it somehow, although there must have been a lot of proof in that one as there was also a separate criminal case. Another rider proved sabotage via a working student but still got sanctioned since the FEI felt the drug should have been locked up not stored in the fridge.[/QUOTE]

I thought there were still some that were unknown, but couldn’t make the case and got the full 2 years? Not necessarily the sabotage like the last rider but others similar.

[Maven]

[QUOTE=yourcolorfuladdiction;7218576]
It’s possible but it’d be even more suspicious if someone wandered on to JP’s farm in Surrey and tried to stuff something down CP’s throat.

I assume, like most UL farms, that at least a worker lives on the farm full time. So it would still be almost impossible. I live in a house by the barn and the horses make noise if you got to the barn, I hear them even in my sleep and would definitely notice something “out of the ordinary” like extra whinnies.[/QUOTE]

Reserpine is often compounded into a flavored powder. No stuffing down the throat needed…just needs to stick to something to be ingested.

Anybody know how much and for how long they would have to be on reserpine to test, or could the powder in the bottom of another horses bucket from a period of time ago be enough to test ?

I really hope it is an error of some kind.

[akor]

I have direct experience with a horse on this type of drug and I don’t understand the “defense” of “The last thing you would do to try to enhance its performance is give it a sedative before it came out tired the next day to try to clear all the show jumps.” (Quote is from the article on eventingnation).

While I have Nothing akin to 4* experience, I do know that I never 1. feared for my safety riding the horse while he was on it (in fact, it was the opposite, I felt much safer) and 2. noticed ANY change in his fitness, jumping ability, or catiness (this horse had a 5th and 6th leg…) or most importantly core personality. All it did was make him more manageable. As in, the 5 stride line was a 4 and maybe a 5 on a really good day rather than a 2.5. To be honest, I can see show jumping being a perfect opportunity to use the drug for. (NOT AT all implying what may have happened here, I really don’t have an opinion on this case other than my usual we will likely never know the “truth.”

I don’t recall the dose, and I realize there are many variables. I just have no association with the drug and “decreased” performance, nor would I fear riding a horse that was on it.

We never showed him on it, BTW, even nonrated. The horse was just so much at ease with himself that the owner kept him on it for a bit.

[SlamDunk]

[QUOTE=yourcolorfuladdiction;7218671]
I thought there were still some that were unknown, but couldn’t make the case and got the full 2 years? Not necessarily the sabotage like the last rider but others similar.[/QUOTE]

Yes there were some, probably less then lot of people think though. I think its more that there burden of proof is very high. Although I didn’t really read the endurance ones (only the jumping and eventing). It seemed more common that people would figure it out and then they’d be like well that’s great and we don’t think you did it on purpose but you are still the person responsible and then boom suspension. Also its only 2 years for banned substances, they are a little more lenient for controlled ones, which I do agree with. I’d be much more sympathetic with a bute cross contamination then with the things on the banned list.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

[QUOTE=Maven;7218686]
Reserpine is often compounded into a flavored powder. No stuffing down the throat needed…just needs to stick to something to be ingested.

Anybody know how much and for how long they would have to be on reserpine to test, or could the powder in the bottom of another horses bucket from a period of time ago be enough to test ?

I really hope it is an error of some kind.[/QUOTE]

It takes at least 90 days to get out of the horse’s system and all it has to do is lick a contaminated feed bucket. It gets in his system quickly and he’ll test positive for it. (oops didn’t know such and such would lick the bucket while I cleaned his stall… or something like that.)

The cram it down his throat comment was, more or less, facetious.

@SlamDunk;7218697

Yes there were some, probably less then lot of people think though. I think its more that there burden of proof is very high. Although I didn’t really read the endurance ones (only the jumping and eventing). It seemed more common that people would figure it out and then they’d be like well that’s great and we don’t think you did it on purpose but you are still the person responsible and then boom suspension. Also its only 2 years for banned substances, they are a little more lenient for controlled ones, which I do agree with. I’d be much more sympathetic with a bute cross contamination then with the things on the banned list.

Definitely more sympathetic on a bute cross contamination. I think for a first time offender with a controlled substance you can just pay some fines and go on your merry way? If I read the rules right.

[vineyridge]

Suppose JER is right and they might have been using a micro dose to control bleeding during training. Then the horse was taken off the micro dose to allow the drug to clear his system. But would there be as much information/research on how long it would take a micro dose to clear as there on a sedative dose and they miscalculated? Say it takes 90 days for a 10 mg dose to clear. How long would it take for a 1 mg dose to clear?

If it’s a contaminated supplement that should be fairly easy to run down at the barns.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7218784]
Suppose JER is right and they might have been using a micro dose to control bleeding during training. Then the horse was taken off the micro dose to allow the drug to clear his system. But would there be as much information/research on how long it would take a micro dose to clear as there on a sedative dose and they miscalculated? Say it takes 90 days for a 10 mg dose to clear. How long would it take for a 1 mg dose to clear?

If it’s a contaminated supplement that should be fairly easy to run down at the barns.[/QUOTE]

that depends upon how low of a level they can test for, if they’re going for “anything” it may be 30 days + or even 90 days still to get it to fully clear the system. This drug is measured on the .1 mgs I believe though so they’re looking for very small doses to begin with.

[KellyS]

I don’t want to get in the middle of the argument about the “innocence” of JP, but…

Having heard first-hand stories from those competing oversees on world teams, let’s just say that:

1. The Europeans are far ahead of us in terms of using substances that do not test
2. It is not at all unusual for the “newest” supplement to handed out in brown paper bags, and those who give it have no idea what it is except that it achieves whatever aim they are after
3. People who are playing at the top levels WILL do stupid things in order to continue winning, often because they’ve gotten away with it before and assume they won’t get caught
4. What goes on between coaches, riders, and vets is something we will never be privy to–even if we think we know everything that goes on in a pro’s barn.

I’m not making a judgment in this case, but I AM glad for a zero tolerance policy. Horses metabolize substances at different rates; how do you put a number on what is “too” much versus non performance enhancing? Some things need to stay black and white, and my gut is that most of those set down for infractions were not the subjects of sabotage or nefarious actions.

I get tired of all the excuses for how cross contamination can happen. If you’re showing at the FEI level, you and those in the barn better have their $hit in order to ensure feed buckets are not being mixed up and horses put in wrong stalls. It’s not rocket science…

It will be interesting to see what the B samples show.