Juan Manuel Munoz Diaz and Fuego XII didn't medal

[QUOTE=mbm;5133524]
maybe because i feel his work is more “correct” (since when are piaffes supposed to bounce?), and while he is tense in the neck, so are many others… (his faster tempo is his breed)

also, i wanted to say i loved Laura’s ride… she did a superb job. but the tension in the other top horses was just distracting - helicopter tails just dont do it for me.

if we had top rides that were like Alfs and Fuego’s i think you would see a much more content dressage world.

and, i think it would be super interesting to do a split vid of Totilas and Fuego in the GP or special to be able to compare side by side.

no matter how hard i try i cant like Totilas in the show arena. it just looks wrong to me - altho i do like some of his warmups. and i do not like his music at all.

ah well forever the contrarian - guess i cant change at this late stage![/QUOTE]

I’m surprised you don’t like Toto if you like Fuego.

They are very different… at least in the competition arena. Totilas always looks inverted to me and his hind legs look not enough stepping under… his relaxation is getting much better, but I just do not like that no matter where i stop the tape he looks …wrong…

Fuego engages and steps under and is round and uphill and forward! he covers ground and uses the ground as a trampoline.

yes, he is tense at times, but to me a lot of his work is more correct…

so… it isnt that i like the horse better, i just think he shows more correct work.

i also like that the rider is giving all the time and patting his horse and trying to push him more out to the contact… i get the feeling the horse is allowed to be a horse and MOVE.

[QUOTE=mbm;5133530]
They are very different… at least in the competition arena. Totilas always looks inverted to me and his hind legs look not enough stepping under… his relaxation is getting much better, but I just do not like that no matter where i stop the tape he looks …wrong…

Fuego engages and steps under and is round and uphill and forward! he covers ground and uses the ground as a trampoline.

yes, he is tense at times, but to me a lot of his work is more correct…

so… it isnt that i like the horse better, i just think he shows more correct work.

i also like that the rider is giving all the time and patting his horse and trying to push him more out to the contact… i get the feeling the horse is allowed to be a horse and MOVE.[/QUOTE]

Really I think Edward was like a feather on Toto’s back the Spanish guy was working harder(I don’t have an issue if you can see some of the aides). I think toto comes up underneath himself I actually watched that and I think because he’s soooo expressive in the front people think he’s not correct behind I also did not see any stiffness. I think Edward and toto are the most harmonized pair…

I absolutely loved both of the rides, Toto and Fuego are amazing. I am somewhat surprised that many of the people who like to tear Totilas down for being tight in the neck and not stepping under enough in the extensions don’t see the same thing with Fuego. Just sayin’. No horse is perfect and obviously Toto and Fuego are more talented at collection than extension–fine by me. They are treasures to our sport.

[quote=mbm;5133524]
maybe because i feel his work is more “correct” (since when are piaffes supposed to bounce?), and while he is tense in the neck, so are many others… (his faster tempo is his breed)

fuegos piaffe looked like all 4 feet stayed on the ground, instead of the moment of suspension :wink: guess it just looks more impressive, doesnt make one more correct than the other.

still beautiful! dont get me wrong… :yes:

stefen peters was a decent choreograph, when he got his horse to the beat of the music it was fun to watch the tempis!

and bartels was a good ride to watch as she followed the music from passage to medium… and canter half pass directly on the beat and the tempis…she really was dancing! and even thos its a faux pas, the tail swishing was to the beat too haha

why is it i dont cry during romance movies and sad movies… put throw out tempis and half pass and im a mess :yes:

Maybe we didn´t see the same

But this is not dressage, these acts belongs to a spanish show.

http://www.horse2rider.eu/Webnodes/en/Web/CMS/Nyheder/Spansk+estetik+forvandlet+til+cirkus

I watched both rides on youtube and while I think Fuego got scored lower then he deserved, he in no way was better then Toto. I think that both horses are non traditional movers in the dressage world of warmbloods, and Fuego’s conformation makes him stand out in a crowd.

Toto had some bobbles but his high marks were much higher so his win was deserving. I think that right now it’s trendy to love to hate him. I thought his rider was much less distracting, and although I thought the one handed tempis were fun they had nothing to do with the test.

I think that Fuego rode a wonderful test, probably the best of his life.

If I may comment, I think that those two horses are at the top of a discipline right now, so they must be doing way more right than wrong.

Now, as armchair quarterbacks, what else can most of us be, we do have our own uneducated to barely educated opinions.
Those we need to take with a grain of salt, because expressing those opinions really reflects more on how little we know and understand of the whole.

Now, my unenlightened opinion is that yes, Toto seems inherently like a horse made with two men in horse suits, the front one and the back one just trying to work in unison.

He has tremendous gaits in front and the excellent rider brings the rear up for him and keeps it effective and all together, but I doubt it is easy.

The other rider has a horse that moves like a 2x4, stiff as a board laterally, way to up in front to have that effective a power engine behind, he loses some flexibility and forward motion.
I think he would benefit from six months of trail riding over hills and long and low to loosen up.:wink:
At the same time, that less powerful engine for forward movement is very good at the more static movements, althougt it seems like it is not as active as it should be and stuck to the ground at times.

I would like to compare him to a Rembrandt in the stiffer way of going, but he way lacks the lightness, evenness and correctnes in the way R performed.
Now, for the times Rembrandt was showing in, some of his performances did bring tears to most eyes, they were so close to what I thought was perfection, compared with the horses he was competing against.

So, we have two completely different horses, that move also in different ways.

The trick is to decide, as they perform, which is the most correct overall for what is being judged in dressage and why and where to give and take from their performances, so there is a winner and loser.

I have yet to see a perfect horse, because some of what we ask of them is antagonistic with each other, like ultimate collection and far-out, very expressive extensions.
It is very hard to find it all in one horse.
There have been a few dressage horses that seemed to have it all, but I expect even there, we would have to agree to disagree who they are and why it is so.:yes:

I was there. About 1 minute into Fuego’s routine, the thought hit me that the price of Andalusians is going up with every step this horse takes. I have a dressage tape from 20 years ago in which an olympic judge is explaining that in a really good ride, he would get the feeling that he wanted to ride that horse. Well, almost everyone in that arena had that feeling last night. The video doesn’t begin to show how the entire stadium fell in love with the horse and the artistic performance. We were on our feet screaming, clapping, whistling and pounding our feet during the performance. The horse exuded joy, beauty, pride and exceptional movement.

It was a shame that Totilas followed this act, because his applause was very muted after what had just happened and there’s no doubt that Totilas and Edward Gal gave a technically much better performance and deserved the gold.

It also became very, very obvious that the judges knew before the class ever started who would be on that platform getting medals. Some rides were scored higher than they deserved, some were lower.

Still, I don’t ever remember a pure Spanish horse ranking top 5 in world class dressage, so I’m certain the judges are aware of the special qualities Fuego brings to the arena.

Although no one has mentioned it, Isabell’s ride was stunning. She was one of the riders I was especially looking forward to seeing and she did not disappoint. Unfortunately, Warem Nicht (sp?) doesn’t have the extravagant movement the top five have.

The don’t call it “The Spanish Riding School” for nothing. I think a lot of people forget that they started it all.

The scoring was definately biased, but Totilas deserved the gold. However, Fuego should have received a better score. Judge from Mexico should hand over license.

Fuego, well, if you were there it was just amazing.

Forgot to add, one of things I loved about Fuego is that he doesn’t lose the tempo in his canter peros. Every other horse I saw slowed down and they always look like they hate it… not so for Fuego.

Also, I was waiting for both Fuego and Totilas to take off flying during their extended trots! Love them both.

I agree with Ridgeback and others. As I said on another thread last night- Fuego needs more time to come into his own before he becomes a world beater. His tempo needs to slow down so his hind end can come under. He needs more bend through the back in the half pass- and overall he needs relaxation.

IMVHO, Toto ended up with the place he deserved, but his score shouldn’t have been that high. He put in stronger tests earlier in the week.

[QUOTE=horse2rider;5133622]
But this is not dressage, these acts belongs to a spanish show.

http://www.horse2rider.eu/Webnodes/en/Web/CMS/Nyheder/Spansk+estetik+forvandlet+til+cirkus[/QUOTE]

People over here probably like that circus. They didn’t see (for example) that the pirouette’s of Fuego XII are a disaster, and Manuel lost many points on the technical part of his test.

And it seems that the No Halt and Salut is also forgotten :lol:

[QUOTE=opel;5133562]
I absolutely loved both of the rides, Toto and Fuego are amazing. I am somewhat surprised that many of the people who like to tear Totilas down for being tight in the neck and not stepping under enough in the extensions don’t see the same thing with Fuego. Just sayin’. No horse is perfect and obviously Toto and Fuego are more talented at collection than extension–fine by me. They are treasures to our sport.[/QUOTE]

Everyone knows I adore Toto for his generous mind. :slight_smile: Think I can put Fuego there too. That horse tries his heart out.

If you want more extension in the gaits, you need to look at Mistral Horjis and Ravel - they are different builds from the previous pair and their gaits show it. Me, I like all of them, in all of their differences. They are super special horses. :slight_smile:

We’re going to see some great head-to-head battles in the near future.

Sue

I still think they desereved bronze or at least a better score. Not going to pick apart the rides of the other horses or his, can honestly say that there is no way myself or even anyone I know is qualified to be doing it, these horses and riders take things to a level beyond what most riders can hope for. Though you could tell the judges had their very set view on what some of the riders should score at.

I just watched the performance again and again (I bought the DVDs). Sorry, Fuego beats Totilas Friday night hands down.

[QUOTE=Calena;5133701]
We were on our feet screaming, clapping, whistling and pounding our feet during the performance. The horse exuded joy, beauty, pride and exceptional movement…

It also became very, very obvious that the judges knew before the class ever started who would be on that platform getting medals. Some rides were scored higher than they deserved, some were lower.[/QUOTE]
This description is scarily similar to a really big Tennessee Walking Horse class. Focusing on expressive, exuberant front end movement is pretty much what the THW industry does.

[QUOTE=horse2rider;5133622]
But this is not dressage, these acts belongs to a spanish show.

http://www.horse2rider.eu/Webnodes/en/Web/CMS/Nyheder/Spansk+estetik+forvandlet+til+cirkus[/QUOTE]

Who wrote that article? Just curious… don’t want to call anyone on this board a bad name.

I think Fuego is pretty leggy for his breed (not that I know much about it), but thought he had more than just exuberant front end movement :slight_smile: