Hi. I have an OTTB that sticks her tongue out. She has always done it- I got her at age 4 and she is now 12. She does this in a halter when tied up. I think it is habit versus an evasion (though I know others will view it differently). Despite this problem, I am still going to continue trying to compete in dressage. So my question is, how much is typically deducted for tongue out? I just want to know how we could have done if she didn’t stick her tongue out.
An S judge once told me it was a mandatory 2 point deduction from every movement where the tongue is observed. I don’t see specific points described in the USEF rule book but I can tell you that a very well-regarded international judge just creamed me for tongue present during test. The tongue was mentioned multiple times on my score sheet with comment, “Your score today is about the tongue.” I was gutted and am totally focused on solving the issue. The irony is that my horse has never felt better in the contact than he does now. :no:
It’s a really big deal.
Not only points off on every movement that the tongue is observed (I do think it’s two points), it also will be reflected in the collectives. You will be dinged (at least one, maybe two points) in submission and rider (effectiveness of aids).
The result is a very low score…I’m sorry to be a downer, it’s a famously difficult issue to overcome, and it can be a real deal breaker for horses whose careers are aimed at dressage.
Well, a couple of questions - does it just peek out between the front teeth? Is it out momentarily then back in, or does it waggle in the breeze out one side of the mouth the entire test?
For an occasional foray outside the mouth, then I would be less strict than the waggle.
I just took a lesson with a new trainer last week and she said It’s too bad about the tongue because she’s a good mover. Well as another trainer once told me, “well if she is sticking her tongue out, let that be the only thing she is doing wrong.” Fortunately we have many other things that can be improve besides her tongue : ) I have found that some dressage judges are “kinder” about the issue than others.
Last summer I thought to myself “If I wanted a horse that could win dressage, I wouldn’t pick this one, but if I wanted a horse that is fun to ride I would pick this one.” She is an all around awesome horse and It is just something I guess I will have to live with.
[QUOTE=dotneko;8672656]
Well, a couple of questions - does it just peek out between the front teeth? Is it out momentarily then back in, or does it waggle in the breeze out one side of the mouth the entire test?
For an occasional foray outside the mouth, then I would be less strict than the waggle.[/QUOTE]
She actively sticks it in and out the side of her mouth (not all the time) but does have plenty of episodes.
Damn, my lovely mare has this issue too.
I think the big penalties are due to the fact that this can be a problem caused by bit pain, heavy hands, etc. All the judge can see is that this tongue is out of this mouth at this moment in time, not why. So if you have a horse that has developed a tongue hanging problem unrelated to how you are actually riding now (like came from the track with the habit), I imagine you’d be judged just the same as if you had in fact created the problem, which is too bad.
Would going bitless for a while help her settle down her tongue?
[QUOTE=Scribbler;8672753]
I think the big penalties are due to the fact that this can be a problem caused by bit pain, heavy hands, etc. All the judge can see is that this tongue is out of this mouth at this moment in time, not why. So if you have a horse that has developed a tongue hanging problem unrelated to how you are actually riding now (like came from the track with the habit), I imagine you’d be judged just the same as if you had in fact created the problem, which is too bad.
Would going bitless for a while help her settle down her tongue?[/QUOTE]
^
The reason why it is verboten is because it is a symptom of discomfort. I am not convinced it is ever a ‘habit’… I have seen many times before horses who’s owners insisted it was an ingrained habit stop the second their pain was addressed. Usually it is hocks or stifles, IME, though I would not rule out back pain, kissing spine or saddle fit. One horse I knew that was a chronic-waggler stopped once he was started on a course of ulcergard. It could be something as simple as the horse not caring for the bitting/noseband combination.
The quickest way to stop the habit besides addressing the pain is to stop allowing it to happen. Switch her bit to a bit that does not allow that, put her in a drop or some other supportive/stable noseband, and get her checked out by a vet. Having a horse that sticks out its tongue sucks, and I sympathize with you, but make sure you exhaust all possible avenues of pain before declaring it a habit. It’s not particularly comfortable to stick your tongue out and wave it, so I am not so sure it is a habit so much as a learned evasion/distraction because something hurts.
Years ago a friend had a OTTB that did this as a result of tongue tying during racing. So it is possible she has developed this as a habit that has nothing to do with you.
Unfortunately, while it may very well not be something you did, you will get dinged for it as others have mentioned.
I was told during a clinic with a judge that any movement in which the tongue is protruding is a mandatory 4 :(. I’m battling this with my current guy and did with my last mare as well. Hopefully with current horse, addressing saddle fit, chiro and overall fitness will be helpful.
[QUOTE=Scribbler;8672753]
Would going bitless for a while help her settle down her tongue?[/QUOTE]
She also does it in a Dr. Cook bitless bridle. She does it the most when I am about to feed her. She also does it when she is really excited about something like really wants to canter on a trail ride.
She has done this since I have known her. I got her 8 months after she left the track and she mostly was out in a pasture during that time.
Have you tried a handful of oats?
That’s sometimes a help for a teeth grinder.
Otherwise, it is a lack of acceptance of connection -
is she going forward into the bridle with a relaxed back?
I wouldn’t jump to an automatic 4 at all unless it was waving
in the breeze.
Depends on context. Speeding is doing 35 in a 30 mph zone and
it is also doing 80 in 40 mph zone. Which is a bigger sin?
[QUOTE=beowulf;8672790]
^
The reason why it is verboten is because it is a symptom of discomfort. I am not convinced it is ever a ‘habit’… I have seen many times before horses who’s owners insisted it was an ingrained habit stop the second their pain was addressed. Usually it is hocks or stifles, IME, though I would not rule out back pain, kissing spine or saddle fit. One horse I knew that was a chronic-waggler stopped once he was started on a course of ulcergard. It could be something as simple as the horse not caring for the bitting/noseband combination."
"The quickest way to stop the habit besides addressing the pain is to stop allowing it to happen. Switch her bit to a bit that does not allow that, put her in a drop or some other supportive/stable noseband, and get her checked out by a vet. Having a horse that sticks out its tongue sucks, and I sympathize with you, but make sure you exhaust all possible avenues of pain before declaring it a habit. It’s not particularly comfortable to stick your tongue out and wave it, so I am not so sure it is a habit so much as a learned evasion/distraction because something hurts.[/QUOTE]
I do not think that it is a pain issue- though that’s not to say it isn’t. The vet is coming out soon for a routine visit and I will ask her about it.
I am wondering what sort of bit would prevent her from doing her tongue thing. I’ve ridden her in a flash noseband but that didn’t seem to matter to her. Of course that would be less restrictive than a drop.
[QUOTE=dotneko;8673294]
Have you tried a handful of oats?
That’s sometimes a help for a teeth grinder.
Otherwise, it is a lack of acceptance of connection -
is she going forward into the bridle with a relaxed back?
I wouldn’t jump to an automatic 4 at all unless it was waving
in the breeze.
Depends on context. Speeding is doing 35 in a 30 mph zone and
it is also doing 80 in 40 mph zone. Which is a bigger sin?[/QUOTE]
She will stop if she has something in her mouth like say, peanut butter. But when the peanut butter is gone so much for that. We have a lot to work on and I can’t say she is consistently going forward into the bridle with a relaxed back- sometimes yes sometimes no. I have been trying to be as soft and light as possible with rein contact and work as much as possible off seat and legs.
[QUOTE=Mukluk;8673303]
She will stop if she has something in her mouth like say, peanut butter. But when the peanut butter is gone so much for that. We have a lot to work on and I can’t say she is consistently going forward into the bridle with a relaxed back- sometimes yes sometimes no. I have been trying to be as soft and light as possible with rein contact and work as much as possible off seat and legs.[/QUOTE]
If she checks out healthy with the vet (no back, hock, teeth, etc issues) I’d fiddle with bridles and bits. Maybe she’d like something with poll comfort, maybe drop versus flash versus none, try looser nose band.
Different problem but my old mare was a habitual chomper, she stopped finally once she went to Lorenzini bits (the ultra light titanium ones) and no flash. And she chomped for a long time, that rhythmical chomping like a metronome, but had no medical issues (all checked out). You could try something that has tongue relief like a Myler, something light like Lorenzini, or if peanut butter keeps her occupied try something with a roller in the middle. She may not like any tongue pressure if she was ever tied down as a racer, so something that works more off the bars might make her happier.
If peanut butter helps you could also look at trying gumbits or I’ve even heard of wrapping bits in fruit rollups (don’t use anything red tho…), I have never tried that before but have heard of people trying it.
Also look at your contact. I realize you state she does this all the time, but heavy hands or not giving enough can really make tongue lolling worse.
Good luck!
[QUOTE=Moogles;8673362]
If she checks out healthy with the vet (no back, hock, teeth, etc issues) I’d fiddle with bridles and bits. Maybe she’d like something with poll comfort, maybe drop versus flash versus none, try looser nose band.
Different problem but my old mare was a habitual chomper, she stopped finally once she went to Lorenzini bits (the ultra light titanium ones) and no flash. And she chomped for a long time, that rhythmical chomping like a metronome, but had no medical issues (all checked out). You could try something that has tongue relief like a Myler, something light like Lorenzini, or if peanut butter keeps her occupied try something with a roller in the middle. She may not like any tongue pressure if she was ever tied down as a racer, so something that works more off the bars might make her happier.
If peanut butter helps you could also look at trying gumbits or I’ve even heard of wrapping bits in fruit rollups (don’t use anything red tho…), I have never tried that before but have heard of people trying it.
Also look at your contact. I realize you state she does this all the time, but heavy hands or not giving enough can really make tongue lolling worse.
Good luck![/QUOTE]
Thanks for this! I have a chomper, lip player. Flashes and drops irritate her enough that she opens her mouth against them. She is so active in her jaw that I have to pad the back of a very loose cavesson or she will rub her jaw raw on it. It was a long road finding our way to a marginally acceptable bit and noseband combo. Unfortunately, I can’t afford to keep her in her bit of choice - the Sprenger Duo because she still chomps that enough that eventually they end up a ragged mess.
She goes decently, and chomps the least in either a KK Correction/Comfort mullen mouth, or a Balkenhol. She is happy in both of those bits (no teeth clacking!) but I do wonder if she’d be even happier in something lighter weight.
Sigh. I used to be one of those throw it in a KK double jointed of the appropriate width and thickness and the horse will learn if you ride it right people. Now I’m firmly planted in the whatever works camp. LoL
For the OP - I feel your frustration. I’ve ridden an OTTB tongue loller before and it’s tough. First you try ignoring and hoping that they’ll see the light when they realise they’re being ridden kindly and there really is no tongue tie. Then, you try fix it with different nosebands and bits. Then, maybe you go for training the habit out by making a small reprimand each time that tongue lolls. Maybe you make some progress and maybe you don’t. The one I worked with got better with less stress. My current chomper, well, if a judge can’t see she isn’t bracing and is as happy as a clam and still wants to penalize an open mouth, oh well, I’ll keep training and enjoying her anyway and take my lumps from those that can’t see beyond a rigid definition of acceptance of the bridle to a happy horse who is overly chatty with her mouth.
Good luck with your tongue issue!
Have you tried a butterfly bit or a rubber butterfly that you put on a regular bit? It might help the problem, especially if you only use it for competition so she doesn’t have time to find a way to evade it.
This is a butterfly, or spade, bit combined with a Waterford snaffle. The 2 circular parts lie flat on the tongue to keep it in place.
http://horsebitbank.com/productimages/butterfly-flip-bit-waterford-spinner_1.jpg
Dover calls this a’rubber bit port’ but I do not think of it as a port. I have used this (it wraps around the bit and feeds back into the slot) so it lies flat on the tongue.
http://www.doversaddlery.com/rubber-bit-port/p/X1-021/
Seems that a lot of people use a ported bit in which the port goes the whole length of the bit so that the bit never touches the tongue
There is a list of threads with similar problems at the bottom of the page. You might want to look at them.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8673474]
Have you tried a butterfly bit or a rubber butterfly that you put on a regular bit? It might help the problem, especially if you only use it for competition so she doesn’t have time to find a way to evade it.
This is a butterfly, or spade, bit combined with a Waterford snaffle. The 2 circular parts lie flat on the tongue to keep it in place.
http://horsebitbank.com/productimages/butterfly-flip-bit-waterford-spinner_1.jpg
Dover calls this a’rubber bit port’ but I do not think of it as a port. I have used this (it wraps around the bit and feeds back into the slot) so it lies flat on the tongue.
http://www.doversaddlery.com/rubber-bit-port/p/X1-021/
Seems that a lot of people use a ported bit in which the port goes the whole length of the bit so that the bit never touches the tongue
There is a list of threads with similar problems at the bottom of the page. You might want to look at them.[/QUOTE]
Only problem is none of that add on crap/spade stuff is legal for dressage. At least, last time I checked it wasn’t anyway.
I appreciate all the ideas. We are fairly new to dressage and did a few shows at training level last year. Our scores ranged from mid 50s to LOW 60’s. Obviously we have a lot to work on. I suppose my goal can be that the only negative comments on our score sheet pertain to her tongue.
I normally ride her in a french link with a copper roller. She has a plain french link for shows.
I am considering having some custom saddle pads made up with the following logo.
http://s140.photobucket.com/user/oldgabbyhaze/media/rolling-stones-tongue-logo.png.html
