You might try a bridle that is designed to reduce/eliminate poll/TMJ pressure. There are several out there…
I feel for you, as Mr. PoPo’s horse did the same thing, and afaik, he had always done it before we got him. Mr. PoPo did okay in the dressage portion of eventing - I’d say his scores were usually fair. One time, a judge did comment to him in person about it after his final salute. She said she had a horse who did the very same thing so she was sympathetic to Mr. PoPo for having such a horse.
The horse’s other qualities were more important than sticking his tongue out during a test, when Mr. PoPo didn’t show THAT much. A safe but brave, sane, fun horse to ride trumped that issue by far.
Having said that, I don’t know anyone who has ever gotten rid of that problem.
Todays blow by blow tongue diary. (T-tongue action. NT= No Tongue action.
Groom horse, NT
longe horse at walk, trot, canter (in caveson) NT
Romp around with Mr. Mukluks gelding several sprints with some bucking and rearing NT.
Tack up and put bridle on NT
Walk down the street on a loose rein NT
Stop to chat with new neighbor, I am dismounted, after awhile starts sticking her tongue out T (bored?) then eventually stopped. (Note: Neighbor comments on how calm she is- aside from playing with her tongue she stood quietly).
Get back on ride off at walk on loose rein NT
Pick up a trot NT
Walk NT
Energetic trot (really wants to run) T
totally loosen reins at energetic Trot T
Walk T
Canter/Hand gallop T
Walk on loose rein NT.
Trot wanting to canter T
canter T
walk wanting to canter T
Trot wanting to canter T
Walk on loose rein NT
More trot wanting to canter, canter T
Walk by herd of 7 large elk, vigorous (she’s seen elk many times before I think she was just wary) T
Get sufficiently past elk walk on loose rein NT
Back to house walk on loose rein NT
Arena work at walk trot canter T (she can see the elk who are out in the meadow but I don’t think that’s the deal). It was T regardless of light contact , no contact. Lots of circles, serpentines. She seemed a little tense, did not get full on relaxation from her (gumbyness?) but she wasn’t super uptight either.
OK what do ya’ll think?
Planning to having regular lessons with my dressage trainer starting next week and will be participating in monthly dressage shows, first one will be last weekend in June)
Vet will be out next Monday.
I have one who did it in a similar fashion to yours. Also an OTTB who came to me with the “habit”. He was competed by a pro who rode him in a flash so it didn’t impinge on his competitive career and he had great dressage scores whilst eventing. But he was notorious on the pro’s yard for pulling faces and always sticking his tongue out whilst waiting for feeds, to be turned out, etc. When he “retired” home to me for a more relaxing life, he was ridden in a plain cavasson and the “habit” started again under saddle- only at times when he found things excitable like fast ridden work on a hack or in a group of other horses. He had a couple of other issues that necessitated some training from a horsemanship trainer and the tongue issue disappeared along with a couple of other “habits” of his. Our take was that the tongue thing was indicative of stress or anxiety and he would play with his tongue as some sort of release. He also hated standing round if I stopped to talk to someone whilst he was being ridden and everyone used to comment on him pulling faces and waggling his tongue but now I think he found the standing still part very anxiety inducing and the tongue thing was a symptom of that. He had already had a full work up from a top vet in regards to soundness issues, pain etc and there was no discomfort, he just was a very stressed out sort of horse who needed his anxiety addressed.
My horse also sticks his tongue out, ever since his jaw was broken by a negligent vet. Totally not his fault, totally not my fault (under saddle… can’t say I don’t blame myself for it still). And he’s a lovely horse doing 3rd/4th very well. It’s not a connection problem, it started because of the pain in his mouth/jaw and now is almost always there.
So I feel your pain, OP. I’ve tried all of the suggestions listed, and he’s happiest in the newish HS novocontact single jointed bit, though that doesn’t fix it, and nothing else has helped. He sticks it out the right side, sometimes just peaking, sometimes wagging (though that is much more rare). I can just open that rein and he’ll open his mouth and adjust things so it’s tucked away, but it will come back. He gets better at times with certain types of work, but worse with others - it seems to be exaggerated when he’s under stress, which is when he’s learning anything new. And some days he just boggles my mind - Saturday we had a loosening ride, just low and stretching and some figures for lateral suppleness, very relaxed, and his tongue was 6-8" out of his mouth and wagging. No logic to it most of the time! :no:
[QUOTE=Mukluk;8674381]
Todays blow by blow tongue diary. (T-tongue action. NT= No Tongue action.
Groom horse, NT
longe horse at walk, trot, canter (in caveson) NT
Romp around with Mr. Mukluks gelding several sprints with some bucking and rearing NT.
Tack up and put bridle on NT
Walk down the street on a loose rein NT
Stop to chat with new neighbor, I am dismounted, after awhile starts sticking her tongue out T (bored?) then eventually stopped. (Note: Neighbor comments on how calm she is- aside from playing with her tongue she stood quietly).
Get back on ride off at walk on loose rein NT
Pick up a trot NT
Walk NT
Energetic trot (really wants to run) T
totally loosen reins at energetic Trot T
Walk T
Canter/Hand gallop T
Walk on loose rein NT.
Trot wanting to canter T
canter T
walk wanting to canter T
Trot wanting to canter T
Walk on loose rein NT
More trot wanting to canter, canter T
Walk by herd of 7 large elk, vigorous (she’s seen elk many times before I think she was just wary) T
Get sufficiently past elk walk on loose rein NT
Back to house walk on loose rein NT
Arena work at walk trot canter T (she can see the elk who are out in the meadow but I don’t think that’s the deal). It was T regardless of light contact , no contact. Lots of circles, serpentines. She seemed a little tense, did not get full on relaxation from her (gumbyness?) but she wasn’t super uptight either.
OK what do ya’ll think?
Planning to having regular lessons with my dressage trainer starting next week and will be participating in monthly dressage shows, first one will be last weekend in June)
Vet will be out next Monday.[/QUOTE]
This is what I have noted from above - work outside arena - not bad (NT), until you pick up contact (T).
Work inside arena - mostly T - even with light to no contact.
Just a thought - when YOU start to work - do you tense up? He might be reacting to your body language. This happens with me and my guy sometimes - I get tense, he gets tense - then it all goes to h#ll!
I’ve talked quite a bit about the tongue issues on my horse, and had some very good suggestions in the past. But for my horse, it all comes back to connection. When I get tense and hold my hands, rather than keeping them soft and pliable, he will come up against the bit and stick out his tongue. When I bring him lower and rounder and working over the back (and then soften my hands), the tongue goes back into his mouth. It also happens more at the end of the ride (probably as he gets tired), or when we’re working through more difficult exercises (where I get tense).
He also will stick out his tongue and play with it when he gets bored in the cross ties.
There are rides when we have no tongue, there are rides when we have more (if he’s worked up and anxious). It’s hard to know exactly what causes it: stress/loss of connection/my braced hands, but the solution has become clear. It challenges me to become a better rider.
I ride him in a rubber baucher. He still is very active in his mouth. (The bit squeaks a lot as he chews it), but he’s much happier in a rubber than metal. I’ve tried a lot of different bits with varying degrees of success. (In your case, I would try things like a ported Myler snaffle, a rubber bit, a mullen mouth, NS verbindend, the Novocontact, etc. and see what works.)
What do you feel in your hand when your horse? What makes him put his tongue back in his mouth? Does he do it more or less for other riders?
I see somewhat of a pattern in your tongue vs. no tongue work. Seems like as he escapes your aids and is no longer supple and working over the back (my guess, as you describe “energetic trot” or “wanting to canter” or “hand galloping”) or tense/anxious, the tongue comes out.
How is your stretchy trot? I would try stretching him down, bringing him up slowly, and any time the tongue comes out, sending him back down again.
[QUOTE=Mukluk;8672661]
I just took a lesson with a new trainer last week and she said It’s too bad about the tongue because she’s a good mover. Well as another trainer once told me, “well if she is sticking her tongue out, let that be the only thing she is doing wrong.” Fortunately we have many other things that can be improve besides her tongue : ) I have found that some dressage judges are “kinder” about the issue than others.
Last summer I thought to myself “If I wanted a horse that could win dressage, I wouldn’t pick this one, but if I wanted a horse that is fun to ride I would pick this one.” She is an all around awesome horse and It is just something I guess I will have to live with.[/QUOTE]
I kinda love this attitude. Dressage is suppose to be about training to improve the horse and rider, not ribbons. A nice ribbon is about $15 dollars ;). Improve your mare as much as possible in every other way and have fun. You gave a TB a second chance and a home. That should be the most important part of the story. :winkgrin:
USEF Dressage Rule 116 2.a.
a. Putting out the tongue, keeping it above the bit or drawing it up altogether,
as well as grinding the teeth or agitation of the tail, are mostly signs of nervousness,tension or resistance on the part of the horse and must be taken
into account by the judges in their marks for every movement concerned, as
well as in the collective mark for “submission”.
Just FYI - there is a rule about it.
[QUOTE=Windermere;8674709]
I’ve talked quite a bit about the tongue issues on my horse, and had some very good suggestions in the past. But for my horse, it all comes back to connection. When I get tense and hold my hands, rather than keeping them soft and pliable, he will come up against the bit and stick out his tongue. When I bring him lower and rounder and working over the back (and then soften my hands), the tongue goes back into his mouth. It also happens more at the end of the ride (probably as he gets tired), or when we’re working through more difficult exercises (where I get tense).
He also will stick out his tongue and play with it when he gets bored in the cross ties.
There are rides when we have no tongue, there are rides when we have more (if he’s worked up and anxious). It’s hard to know exactly what causes it: stress/loss of connection/my braced hands, but the solution has become clear. It challenges me to become a better rider.
I ride him in a rubber baucher. He still is very active in his mouth. (The bit squeaks a lot as he chews it), but he’s much happier in a rubber than metal. I’ve tried a lot of different bits with varying degrees of success. (In your case, I would try things like a ported Myler snaffle, a rubber bit, a mullen mouth, NS verbindend, the Novocontact, etc. and see what works.)
What do you feel in your hand when your horse? What makes him put his tongue back in his mouth? Does he do it more or less for other riders?
I see somewhat of a pattern in your tongue vs. no tongue work. Seems like as he escapes your aids and is no longer supple and working over the back (my guess, as you describe “energetic trot” or “wanting to canter” or “hand galloping”) or tense/anxious, the tongue comes out.
How is your stretchy trot? I would try stretching him down, bringing him up slowly, and any time the tongue comes out, sending him back down again.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, I am working on soft soft soft in my contact and working much more off of seat/legs. Interestingly, when I had her going yesterday on the trail (energetic trot) and dropped my contact completely, she continued to stick her tongue out. Also sticks tongue out in a bitless bridle. Tongue tends to be out when she is tense but when I get her more rounded with soft contact she often continues to do it. I'm going to try her today with arena work first and see what happens (yesterday was trail then arena). I'll have my trainer watching next time I ride to see what we can determine about patterns to the tongue behavior.
She is rarely ridden by anyone else but I could have my trainer get on at my next lesson and see what happens.
I should post a video on here, though not totally sure how to do that.
For my horse, sticking out the tongue is a combination of tension/contact/lack of connection. If he’s tense and not through, he can continue to stick out his tongue if there’s no contact. He also will stick it out in some bitless bridles (like a mechanical hackamore), but not others.
There’s a definite trend, but it’s not a black and white situation where if X, then tongue. I’d encourage you to keep working with your trainer and seeing what makes the tongue come out, and what makes it go back into the mouth. If you can post video (upload it to youtube or facebook then post a link), that could be helpful.
Also, even though tongue out/teeth grinding/tail wringing are all lumped into the same category of tension and evasion in the rule book, tongue seems to be punished more than the other vices.
Now that I’ve had a horse with this problem, I’m surprised at how often I’ve seen it discussed.
Have you tried gum bits?
I was also going to suggest trying wrapping the bit in a fruit roll up. Can’t hurt! But yes, don’t use a red one. : )
I use Gumbits. It stopped the grinding but now the tongue’s out. All things equal, I’d rather have grinding!
OP I’ve quickly read through all of your posts and most of the responses and I don’t think you have said or been asked: is the tongue always coming out the same side of the mouth? Does the horse do it on both reins (in both directions?)
If it is only coming out the left side for instance, regardless of the direction you are going, then the problem is in the left hind leg. Usually not stepping under with it sufficiently. EG - the problem is in the connection as a few others have suggested. I had a dyed in the wool tongue hanger-outer that had been a hunter and came to me with the habit. Much as it went against my better judgment, I cranked his trap shut with a jawband cavesson until I could address the underlying training issue. It was curable. I got my bronze on that horse and he never stuck his tongue out again. Back to my question - is she only sticking the tongue out on one side?
[QUOTE=Mondo;8675370]
OP I’ve quickly read through all of your posts and most of the responses and I don’t think you have said or been asked: is the tongue always coming out the same side of the mouth? Does the horse do it on both reins (in both directions?)
If it is only coming out the left side for instance, regardless of the direction you are going, then the problem is in the left hind leg. Usually not stepping under with it sufficiently. EG - the problem is in the connection as a few others have suggested. I had a dyed in the wool tongue hanger-outer that had been a hunter and came to me with the habit. Much as it went against my better judgment, I cranked his trap shut with a jawband cavesson until I could address the underlying training issue. It was curable. I got my bronze on that horse and he never stuck his tongue out again. Back to my question - is she only sticking the tongue out on one side?[/QUOTE]
She is Ambi-tonguestrous meaning she does it out of left and right side of mouth and in both directions (left or right circles or travel around arena).
Todays tongue data (all done in arena)
Rode her with a bareback pad today.
No tongue for grooming, longing in caveson, and longing with bridle on (no reins) under caveson.
Put her in Dr. Cooks bitless, No tongue (in the arena at walk trot canter). In the past she stuck her tongue out in the Dr. Cooks but this was on a trail ride and she was probably more excited.
Switched to bridle with bit, out comes the tongue. I made my best effort to have either light to no contact (loose reins)- didn’t matter. I felt that I was pretty relaxed (not tense) so still not sure. Can’t wait to get observation feedback from trainer. Trainer worked with her all last summer and does not think it is a pain issue, but vet will be out on Monday to check her out.
I’ll try the fruit roll ups to see what happens but that would only be a temporary fix.
It’s a frustrating issue.
How many different bits have you tried her in?
Can you take the noseband off and see what happens? I also will try hanging the bit much lower, more like a western bit, or higher than normal. That can help. Feel around in her mouth and make sure it’s not in her teeth when you engage the rein aids, the wrinkles at the corner of the mouth doesn’t work for all horses. Even if you have great hands if the bit is getting in her teeth it’ll be hard for her to be relaxed. The tongue tie issue from the track is real but sometimes there is a reason they used a tongue tie to begin with.
Also look at her conformation and how she goes when shes’ on the bit. It’s harder for horses to breathe and swallow on the bit than on a loose rein. Some horses simply need to go a bit “above” the bit due to their throat conformation. Is her mouth soft and wet, overly wet, extremely drooly? Does she breathe heavily? I never considered this till a very good trainer discussed it at a clinic, about a stallion with a thick throatlatch- it was very interesting. I think the new shaped bits can help a ton.
Finally sometimes it’s worth getting a specialist dentist, sedating the horse and really looking at the teeth. I’m currently riding a horse that needs this but the regular vet just does a quick swipe and says the teeth are ok. She’s a good vet but it’s hard to tell what’s really going on with the teeth if you can’t ~really~ look and the horse is resistant to start with.
You could try a breaking bit? I’ve found them helpful in the past for this kind of thing. http://www.saddleworldcaboolture.com/contents/media/zilco%20full%20cheek%20breaking%20bit%20%23123516.jpg
Also can you tell when she is doing it? If you could ask for a little more bend or something to relax the jaw and distract her as soon as she starts, would that help? It would be good to rule out pain, but tension or boredom could easily be factors too.
