Could the habit of sticking the tongue out be endorphin related similar to cribbing and weaving? There are many horses who crib and weave as a habit to experience the endorphin rush.
[QUOTE=INoMrEd;8676103]
Could the habit of sticking the tongue out be endorphin related similar to cribbing and weaving? There are many horses who crib and weave as a habit to experience the endorphin rush.[/QUOTE]
It may be a stereotypy, sure, but the thing you need to remember is that stereotypies do not have benign origins. They stemmed from coping mechanisms because at some point the horse was so distressed or uncomfortable that it needed an outlet. Eliminate the stress/discomfort and you will reduce or eliminate the frequency of stereotypy behaviors.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8676144]
It may be a stereotypy, sure, but the thing you need to remember is that stereotypies do not have benign origins. They stemmed from coping mechanisms because at some point the horse was so distressed or uncomfortable that it needed an outlet. Eliminate the stress/discomfort and you will reduce or eliminate the frequency of stereotypy behaviors.[/QUOTE]
You make a very good point beowulf.
I imagine that my friend’s mare would not have been a weaver had she been kept in a larger area. But in Los Angeles there are not a lot of pastures or areas for daily turnout. Many horses are kept in 12 x 12 box stalls or small 12 x 24 pipe corrals. IMO these horses tend to develop self-soothing habits.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8676144]
It may be a stereotypy, sure, but the thing you need to remember is that stereotypies do not have benign origins. They stemmed from coping mechanisms because at some point the horse was so distressed or uncomfortable that it needed an outlet. Eliminate the stress/discomfort and you will reduce or eliminate the frequency of stereotypy behaviors.[/QUOTE]
So, if you take the stress out of a cribber’s life, he will stop cribbing? AWESOME! lol
I tend to think of stereotypies in horses as kind of similar to addiction (cigarettes, alcohol) in people. Maybe they were started because of stresses, but removing the stresses will not necessarily stop the problem. Same with things like humans who chew their fingernails down to bloody stumps, who wash their hands every 2 minutes, etc. Those behaviours are not necessarily going to change because one removes a stressor.
In terms of cribbing, pawing/door banging, stall walking, weaving, tongue playing (can occur in the stall or crossties as well as under tack), maybe, maybe, they start as reactions to stress. But, by the time they are truly ingrained, removing the stress is not necessarily going to make the behaviour go away in every horse.
We also need to consider that not every stress in a horse’s life is something horrible put upon them by a human. Ulcers happen. Weaning happens. Stall lay ups due to injury or illness happen. Quarantine happens.
[QUOTE=sascha;8676432]
So, if you take the stress out of a cribber’s life, he will stop cribbing? AWESOME! lol
I tend to think of stereotypies in horses as kind of similar to addiction (cigarettes, alcohol) in people. Maybe they were started because of stresses, but removing the stresses will not necessarily stop the problem. Same with things like humans who chew their fingernails down to bloody stumps, who wash their hands every 2 minutes, etc. Those behaviours are not necessarily going to change because one removes a stressor.
In terms of cribbing, pawing/door banging, stall walking, weaving, tongue playing (can occur in the stall or crossties as well as under tack), maybe, maybe, they start as reactions to stress. But, by the time they are truly ingrained, removing the stress is not necessarily going to make the behaviour go away in every horse.
We also need to consider that not every stress in a horse’s life is something horrible put upon them by a human. Ulcers happen. Weaning happens. Stall lay ups due to injury or illness happen. Quarantine happens.[/QUOTE]
It’s interesting you deliberately glossed over my post in which I stated reduce - I didn’t say it ‘always’ eliminates behavior. In fact, I deliberately avoided the word ‘always’ because I knew someone would come in and try to twist my words into something I didn’t say.
For what it’s worth, I have seen tremendous improvement with cribbers, weavers and stall-walkers if you turn them out 24/7 in a group/herd turnout. Might be worth investigating if your horse cribs. Some stereotypies do permanently alter the neuron pathways in the brain which can permanently alter behavior.
Stereotypies are a management issue; that much has been proven and studied. Instead of blithely going along with saying “oh it’s an ingrained behavior it cannot be stopped” maybe investigate why it happens and try to fix it. I’ve had weavers and cribbers in my care and all of them have reacted positively to a more natural lifestyle. Obviously not every person can avoid stalling a horse, but you should at least attempt to resolve the issue before handwringing that your horse’s behaviors are incurable.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8676144]
Eliminate the stress/discomfort and you will reduce or eliminate the frequency of stereotypy behaviors.[/QUOTE]
WILL and both reduce and ELIMINATE are right there in your type.
What I didn’t say in my post was that all stereotypies in horses are incurable.
There’s a middle road. We don’t understand enough yet. I mean, jeez, barely anyone sees a horse playing in its water or flapping its lips and says, “oh shit, ulcers! better get that dealt with” and yet, that is precisely what we should be saying. Horses getting cast frequently? same thing. Horses purposely casting themselves so they can lie upside down? Same thing. But, saying that all stereotypies are curable or able to be reduced ain’t right either.
And then there’s the whole more natural life style thing. Yes, I think some problems are reduced. Others, we just don’t see because they are not in front of our faces all the time. I’m specifically thinking of mild colics which resolve themselves.
Anyway, my points were that not everything can be solved (at this time) by being a better owner, and not every stereotypy necessarily has an ominous beginning.
ETA, my horse doesn’t crib, but thanks for the management advice lol I was talking about The Horse in general, not about any specific horse, although I could dig back through my memory both recent and distant for examples that were helped with changes and those that were unable to be helped. And lots who had seemingly spontaneous starts to their behaviours.
[QUOTE=sascha;8676498]
WILL and both reduce and ELIMINATE are right there in your type.
What I didn’t say in my post was that all stereotypies in horses are incurable.
There’s a middle road. We don’t understand enough yet. I mean, jeez, barely anyone sees a horse playing in its water or flapping its lips and says, “oh shit, ulcers! better get that dealt with” and yet, that is precisely what we should be saying. Horses getting cast frequently? same thing. Horses purposely casting themselves so they can lie upside down? Same thing. But, saying that all stereotypies are curable or able to be reduced ain’t right either.
And then there’s the whole more natural life style thing. Yes, I think some problems are reduced. Others, we just don’t see because they are not in front of our faces all the time. I’m specifically thinking of mild colics which resolve themselves.
Anyway, my points were that not everything can be solved (at this time) by being a better owner, and not every stereotypy necessarily has an ominous beginning.[/QUOTE]
Right, which is why I said “will help reduce OR eliminate”. We know that much - we know altering a horse’s management can reduce the evidence of stereotypies. You are deliberately misreading my post or reading something that isn’t there: I never said all stereotypies can be eliminated.
The fact of the matter is that tongue wringing isn’t really considered a stereotypy at this time, and that it is punished/penalized in the rule book because it is seen as a sign of tension, discomfort, or evasion of the bit.
Wasn’t there a Dressage Today article a way back by Anja Berenson (sorry for the spelling) about her greatest training challenge being a horse with tongue issues? I think her solution was more and more forward…
[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;8675617]
How many different bits have you tried her in?[/QUOTE]
Not too many. I am willing to try some other bits or whatever else we can do.
Regardless of her tongue stuff, I just love her.
[QUOTE=Magicboy;8676536]
Wasn’t there a Dressage Today article a way back by Anja Berenson (sorry for the spelling) about her greatest training challenge being a horse with tongue issues? I think her solution was more and more forward…[/QUOTE]
If anyone has a link to that I’d be very interested.
I feel for you OP! My pony doesn’t stick her tongue out but she chews on bits like a Labrador puppy! In the crossties, on a loose rein, on the contact. Chomping and sucking on it with this stoned, happy look on her face. Take away her ability to chew and it’s ears back, pissed off and super not impressed! I did FINALLY find a bit she can’t get in her teeth and she finally gave up the good fight and only tries to chew on it occasionally now instead of constantly. We ran the gauntlet ruling out discomfort. I refused to close her mouth with a tight noseband or a flash as I’m a believer in if she’s chomping on the bit she’s trying to communicate a problem. Fix the problem and the chomping will stop. In this case…nope. No problem. She just enjoyed it like a cribber enjoys wind sucking.
I agree that some horses develop a habit and even when the initial cause of the habit is removed it may stay ingrained. I’ve seen some bad habits improve when the cause was removed, but I’ve seen some just keep on keepin’ on no matter what the situation. I adopted an OTTB who was a horrible cribber. He was treated and scoped for ulcers, put on 24/7 turnout with buddies he loved, never ridden, given free choice hay and that horse would crib on ANYTHING. Always did. We ever tried putting him in a small electric fence with nothing to crib on for a few days to see if he would find a different way to self soothe. He tried to crib on a horse. It was a habit and it stayed with him until he died. I also had a weaver I inherited who had been stalled 24/7 for years except for an hour of turnout a day…poor thing nearly lost his mind. He weaved even in the middle of a 60 acre field. He had been doing it so long it was just part of him. I’ve definitely seen my fair share of “solve the stress, problem goes away” but sometimes you just have to accept it is who they are and, like OP is doing, just make the best of it. More power to you OP for just enjoying your horse, quirks and all, and just going out to show regardless because you enjoy it!
Did I miss it? Is she sticking it out slightly in front from bit pressure (i.e., not enough room in her mouth)? Or is it to the side?
[QUOTE=Velvet;8677534]
Did I miss it? Is she sticking it out slightly in front from bit pressure (i.e., not enough room in her mouth)? Or is it to the side?[/QUOTE]
She sticks it out to the side, on both sides of her mouth.
I meant to ride today but work got too busy. She was going to town on the tongue action (non-stop) while I was preparing her grain. She had nothing on her head. She is an odd creature.
.Weaning happens. Stall lay ups due to injury or illness happen. Quarantine happens.
These things happen because of humans.LOL. Ulcers are also mostly caused by the stresses humans put on horses.
OP, you describe times when the horse is relaxed and doesn’t stick out the tongue. I suggest that you only ride the horse in these conditions for a couple of months. Any time the tongue comes out, go back to the less stressful thing when it was in. If you are willing to be very patient, this can be fixed.
Better yet, don’t ride your horse at all! Riding is an act of domination. Set her freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! :lol:
OP, you describe times when the horse is relaxed and doesn’t stick out the tongue. I suggest that you only ride the horse in these conditions for a couple of months. Any time the tongue comes out, go back to the less stressful thing when it was in. If you are willing to be very patient, this can be fixed.
Really?
Did you not read the Tongue Journals? The detailed Diary written in the Language of Lingua?
I think stopping activity because the tongue pops out is not going to accomplish anything. People and horses need to learn to cope with being uncomfortable. School would have ended in grade 1 if I wasn’t made to deal with life being uncomfortable. Backing off only confirms to the horse that he is right in his unease.
Keep going and while he may not stop with the tongue when stressed, he may learn that he doesn’t need to stress because these activities are not a big deal.
I have a horse that spooks…trade you for 
Here is a thought brought out at a small gathering of horse lovers, one a vet. He brought up that not all Vets check the roof of the mouth and fewer have a real thorough look at the teeth. The roof may be too flat. The only Vet who can completely check not only the teeth but also their shape is a Dental Specialist… Especially in the back. A friend had the same trouble. The Dentist found out that
one back tooth on each side had a shape that when the tongue was in certain places, they rubbed the cheek. He filed them down and the tongue slowly learned that the pain was gone, specially after the cheek was not sore anymore. COULD that be a situation to check???
So, first, I would say have a really good dentist come out to do her teeth (if you haven’t already).
To me, if she learned this habit and it is a product of excitement from the track and not from pain, then like any other bad habit, you can and should try to train it out. I would work on relaxation and also try different training methods to see if you can teach her not to do it. How is she after you give her a treat? Have you tried moving the bit or making a correction when she does it?
During one of my working student stints, I was lucky enough to ride one of my trainers GP horses who was awesome, but high strung and before I got there would get stressed/mad and stick his tongue out or try to get it over the bits (double bridle). The first issue was tension, so I worked on relaxing him and spent a lot of time walking him in connection. The second thing was telling him that I wasn’t okay with that behavior. So, I would send a correction through the reins with a quick closing of the reins and immediate release. It wasn’t long before he completely stopped. Now I’m in no way advocating being rough with your horses mouth or being mean in general, my correction was in no way harsh. I’m simply suggesting that if this isn’t a pain issue than you may want to consider tackling this as you would another bad habit, which means rewarding correct behavior and discouraging negative behavior.
Good luck and don’t give up! 
My first horse did this, but only when he was relaxed and happy. He’d stand dozing in his stall with it out. He only pulled it back in when he was tense or nervous. My old trainer suspected it was from too many tranquilizers when he was a jumper.
Yes, we got dinged 2 points every time it came out in the dressage ring. The result? Even though he had spectacular movement and extensions to die for, he rarely scored out of the 50s
I would never again buy a horse with this problem if I was aiming for a dressage career.
Seen by vet and dentist. No issues identified. I think I am just not going to care too much. I really think this is a habit with her- she does it most vigorously when she is about to get her grain. Under saddle it seems related to some extent to excitement but also happens more but not always with contact. Maybe with lots of work and moving better more relaxed overall she may do it less. We are going to just hope to improve in dressage relative to ourselves. I didn’t buy her to be a dressage horse, it is just one of many things we do. She’s my girl and I love her.
