Jumpers - would you buy a horse with poor form o/f

[Punkie]

Watching the video of him at the show versus the video of you trying him at home, I personally wouldn’t buy this horse unless you can go back to Europe and take him to a show or two yourself (a short lease perhaps?). At that point, your money might be better spent in the States or Canada, but if this is your first proper jumper, I might reconsider. Like many others have mentioned, he is very peeky even in familiar environments, and if you’re anything like me, a bad distance or two sneaks in every so often as it does for all of us amateurs and I hate to think what that could look/feel like at any real height. I leased a REALLY cool jumper who had miles through the 1.35 and was crazy scopey and careful, but if you got that mare a titch too close to the base, you were going to the MOON. Fast, catty, gorgeous, and so kind, but girlfriend was crazy allergic to wood. In her case, the short spot was always worse than the long (bless her, she NEVER played on the back end and had several very reasonable opportunities to send me packing but never did) but even as a seasoned jumper rider that definitely shook my confidence a little. I quite like the way he jumps/goes, but from my perspective as an amateur who happily/comfortably jumps the 1.20s, this wouldn’t be the horse I would pick but we could be very different riders!

The best advice I ever got when selecting a jumper as an amateur with reasonable height (but no GP) aspirations was from an old school trainer who has seen a lot of sh!t and ridden a lot of horses. This was when I was looking for my first amateur jumper. I had junior jumpers, but took about a 10 year hiatus, so it was more or less starting from the beginning. His advice was to look for an equitation horse with a motor. Upright, a canter like it’s climbing trees, jumps cleanly and tidily, but not so well that you’ll regret your choices when you invariably miss a distance or two. Up to you whether you want something that cracks its back, but for anything under the 1.30s, this seems unnecessarily aggressive/uncomfortable for me but you might prefer something that gives you that feeling! And then he would make me intentionally miss when I tried the horse(s). Find the long spot, find the chip, see what happens. That quickly took a few contenders out of the running that I otherwise would have vetted thinking that I would be totally fine with how they miss. It might not work for you, but it’s some of the most solid advice I’ve ever received and advice I still employ when horse shopping to this day! Good luck whichever way you go!

[foursocks]

I like him- he looks scopy and brave. You did a good job with him in that little video, I thought- you look like a calm, steady rider who won’t find the jumper ring too much of a stretch, honestly! If you liked the way he felt and feel confident you will have the help you need when he gets home, it seems totally doable.

I learned how to be a jumper rider on my (now) older horse, who was just coming five when I bought him. He is extremely careful and just an absolute powerhouse of a jumper. Poor guy had to be part of my learning curve and we both ended up with some baggage from it. I had to learn to ride like a German, basically, which went against everything my hunter/eq. heart knew about riding. At this point I CANNOT give to the jumps if they are 1.10m or higher- he feels abandoned and loses confidence and immediately drops on his forehand. And then his balance is gone and our perfect distance is shot. I’m not tugging back, but he requires me to have a steady contact to every jump while at the same time keeping him in front of my leg, light in front, and sitting behind. It’s hard! And, again, it goes against my early training but this is what he requires. If I ride correctly this wonderful horse will jump anything from any distance and not care. If I don’t, he will stop.

I am sharing this because it can be incredibly demoralizing and it made my own confidence plummet until it finally clicked with me exactly what he needed. I wish I had understood how getting him balanced was the key to everything much sooner than I did, and the exact level of effort it requires to do so. He’s a heavier guy than this horse looks, and I’m not saying you will have that issue whatsoever, but I do know in hindsight it would have been more useful for me had my first jumper been a less powerful and less super-careful jumper, AND not a green horse…or at least, not all at the same time!

In that sense, it is worth thinking about trying to find something that is a bit less extravagant in its jump for your first jumper. Or, as you said above, just be willing to take your time and make sure he gets the miles he needs with a confident rider as you are learning the ropes of the jumper ring. It’s incredibly fun to have big-jumping horses, but it can take a while to figure out how to ride them, for sure! My little grey in the picture above took us a while to figure out and I just decided early on it would take whatever time it took, instead of having concrete goals. That was another mistake with my other guy, but I did finally learn that lesson, too- it’s paying off to be very patient with my little grey squirrel!

[Paint_Party]

@Punkie

Fast, catty, gorgeous, and so kind, but girlfriend was crazy allergic to wood.

It took me a moment when I read this. I was like, “Wow, the mare had allergies to wood. Was she bedded on straw?”

And then I got it. Great analogy and it made me laugh.

[greysfordays]

@Harte

I definitely fall on the wimpier side and always take the cautious option, so thank you for adding this consideration.

I tend to agree with posters that this seems like a pretty careful horse, there were a couple rides with the pro where he’s really sending him and the jump is not that spooky looking. It wouldn’t be my choice if I were newer to the jumpers.

But your comment is the one that gives me pause. The thing with careful horses is if you consistently get on the add, they can get shut down and more tense and that can lead to stops. I would actually be more encouraged if you said you’re a when in doubt leave it out, because for a careful horse, that forward always attitude is a salve for them when they lose confidence.

I’m like you, I would prefer a conservative distance and the mare I’m leasing is much more careful than we thought. When I ask her for that closer distance to a 1.25m oxer out of the corner, she will quit on me if I do not have a boatload of leg to compress.

Coming from the hunters, that was hard for me to learn in the jumpers. Even in the 3’6, that quieter distance was done really softly with a supporting but not compressing leg and not sitting up a ton to keep it from being obvious. The jump isn’t actually that big or square, so it’s fine. It’s taken me a while to learn that ride and i’ve lost a ton of confidence just in the five months I’ve been leasing the mare. For reference, I’ve been in the 1.20s for over five years riding a lot of different types.

You look like a more accurate rider than I was when I moved over and it looks like you have lots of body control, which will serve you really well. But I would just hesitate a little that you want to be conservative if you’re questioning. That doesn’t always match with young careful horses.

[skydy]

@Harte

Thanks! I would definitely be starting low and slow, probably something he can just step over (like a meter) and ask for pros to get him used to the show ring. I would love to jump this height (or bigger!) eventually at home, but am in no rush whatsoever and would be happy to take it easy, especially since he would have a whole new country to adapt to when he gets here. He’s only 6 so there is no rush at all.

You have a very good attitude. I am nowhere near as qualified as the people who are giving you advice here, but your trainer should be a very proficient rider and teacher.

I think the advice given here is to be careful that you aren’t buying a horse for your trainer to ride. You ride very well but you need to be able to ride the horse, albeit jumping at a lower height.

Did you tack him up and untack him, see how he is to handle on the ground?

Can you try him outdoors? Pay for a lesson given by a pro local to the seller?

There’s no guarantee that he’ll be the same horse once he’s imported but that’s true of any young horse.

Good luck, whatever you decide!

[McGurk]

The video of the pro on him is very instructive. I noticed that they (he/she) sat consistently behind the motion and were very tactful about rating/rebalancing the horse in the lines and in front of the fences.

In other words, this horse looks like a pro ride at this point in his schooling.

He might be fine cruising around the 1 meter with you as you get acquainted, but what I see is a sensitive, nervy horse that 1.) tends to way over jump 2.) gets over his shoulder and hangs a little in front without a very assertive rider to balance him.

I don’t know you and how you ride, but this is not a horse I would recommend for a client just starting out in the jumper ring. It might be fine, you might end up paying for a lot of training rides or it might be a really bad match.

[Harte]

image

thanks, this is me on him. I was obviously in a very controlled environment and not under the pressure of the show ring (minus my toddler shrieking from the rafters)

[NaturallyHappy]

I don’t know if you should buy him or not…many people have offered great perspectives….you are the only one who knows how you felt on him. I’ll repeat… I like him and think he looks fun. I thought you rode him very well. My late trainer DVM DH was a show jumper from Europe and I’m a hunter rider. A goof trainer (or your good analytical skills) can sort out a lot. Best of luck in making a decision.

[fivestrideline]

I’m also on team “keep looking”. For all the reasons stated above.

I’ve watched SO MANY good, capable riders take career ending confidence hits - not even by injury or falling off - by buying too much horse. Leasing is one thing, you can get out. Buying too much horse while having another horse or two to ride in the same ring while the greenie is in training, not a bad option (also because you can always sell the horse). But a lot of people can only afford one going horse, and will often try to make it work far longer than they should. Sometimes it works out, they gain skills, but FAR too often the end of that story is a horse and a rider both a bit fried and afraid of each other. It’s really, really hard to rebuild that confidence, especially if you OP - as you’ve said - already have less confidence than some. I have seen it IRL, and we’ve seen it here in the board a lot.

I don’t dislike the horse or his form. People here with a heckuva lot more experience (and doing much bigger classes!) than me have offered stellar input. If you have other horses to ride in the jumpers while you work with this one and the risk is fine with you, sure! But if this is The Horse, I say keep shopping.

[ATXmom]

Whether you buy him or not is between you and your trainer, but I like him.

We have a Cornet son (out of a Ramiro Z mare) who looks and sounds personality wise (honestly the sweetest, most perfect puppy dog) very like this horse, so clearly I’m partial Ours is headed for the hunter ring as he is slow, slow, slow…

[findeight]

Are you still over there? Can you set up another test ride over a course? They can be lower fences, you want to see attitude and rideability between fences and watch him off both leads with you on board. Sometimes big jumping horses are not content to take things lower and slower as a rider learns.

Just a thought.

[McGurk]

I like the horse as well. He is definitely an athlete, and is keen and brave. 20 or 30 year old me would have loved him.

His form really isn’t a concern at all. His front end is fine, even quite good, when he gets to the fence in balance at an appropriate spot.

Watching your video, I think you did an excellent job on him. But I want you to notice the head shaking around the corners, and how heavy he got in your hands after the second fence. Imagine if there was a third fence a related distance from the second. Could you have reestablished rhythm and balance in time? And then landed from the third fence in balance? THAT’S what the pro was so tactful about managing, riding from seat and weight rather than hand.

Again, you might buy this horse and have a fabulous time learning on him. You might get this horse and have to have a pro tune him up for you frequently and still have a good time and a learning experience. Or you could end up with a bad experience or a horse you don’t feel confident about riding.

It’s a very nice horse. You are a very capable rider. It doesn’t mean this is a match.

ETA: If you were my client (I’m going to make some assumptions, sorry.) with a lot of experience in the hunter ring, but not much or none in the jumper ring, this is not the horse I would want for you. I would want a horse that was stepping down, a been there/done that type, who would be forgiving of mistakes, but could be competitive at the 1.1 and 1.2 meter classes. If you didn’t have the budget for THAT horse and had to buy a young horse to bring along, this horse would tempt me, but I wouldn’t bite. I’d want something a little less nervy and a little less forward; a little more accepting of the hand.

If you buy the horse anyway, because he’s lovely, I’ll cheer for you every step of the way and demand photos.

But one last caveat - if a professional familiar with the market tells you this horse is a little or a lot too cheap for something with his athletic ability, run, don’t walk, away.

[findeight]

McGurks post times 10

[IPEsq]

He shakes his head a lot in the beginning of the show video also, which is not something I love. But he does settle out as the course goes on, which is promising.

I’d say that if you have had confidence issues, even if you are generally an accurate rider, this also wouldn’t be my first pick horse due to his type. I tried one in Europe that would be the ideal…well, sort of “tried him”…he was clearly a jumper and I was looking for a hunter prospect but hadn’t jumped much at all in the past year due to my horse’s soundness issues so the trainer (who I’d met before) put me on a more seasoned sale horse to knock the rust off before showing me the 5yo hunter prospect. That horse had been ridden by a junior girl not a big European man, he locked in on the jumps and took you there, but he didn’t rip your arms off doing it and if you saw the short distance he complied kindly. He’d leave it out, add it up, whatever. He had a jumper motor and was not the most supple thing I’ve ever sat on so not a candidate for an eq conversion prospect. If I had any inkling of showing in the jumpers, I would have bought him. I mean, honestly, if I had my own farm and the finances to collect horses, I would have wanted him as a practice horse and thrown him on the plane along with the one I did buy. That is the kind of first jumper I would recommend.