Just need some perspective today

[Simkie]

Man, tough crowd. I think it’s a bummer that so many here think this horse won’t ever have this skill, when we don’t know what’s been done in an attempt to teach her how to ride out in a group.

When I have a horse that’s repeatedly providing the “wrong” answer, the issue isn’t usually the horse. It’s the question. I am asking the wrong question.

@cmdrcltr how is she riding out alone? Can she walk, trot and canter comfortably and confidently? Is she fun for you to trail ride alone?

How about with one other horse? Two? Three?

If she’s comfortable and confident doing any of that–and really, comfortable…confident, not just she does it and she tolerates it–where does she stop being like that? Where does she start to worry about it?

Going out and riding in a large group at all gaits is hard. Sure, some horses can just go out and do that and don’t need any special training to do it. Some horses can also just come out and naturally jump 4’ fences, too. Some people just “get” calculus. Others need to learn via a progression of smaller steps. That’s okay! It doesn’t mean they won’t ever get there.

Knowing this horse isn’t ready to ride out in a large group, especially at speed, and saying no to those rides isn’t a bad thing. It’s not wrong, it’s not you being a chicken. It’s protecting your horse and setting her up for success. It’s choosing to not ask her a question you KNOW she can’t answer correctly.

Instead, ask her questions that you think she can answer. Work from there. Riding alone? Riding with one other horse? Riding with a small group that you trust to really not do anything but walk? Wherever your horse is comfortable, work THERE. Ask small questions. Praise a lot. Build confidence.

And just something to mull over: I also have a sensitive, very responsive horse. Although he is okay with contact, he would prefer if I didn’t touch his face. It’s been fun, because he’s so in tune with other cues. But he’s had this thing with the dog, where she startles him and he leaps forward or sideways and WHOA it feels like the first step of a run off. Not fun! Also frustrating because he’s literally seen that damned dog or another every single day for TEN YEARS. So WTF dude.

I realized, pretty much by accident, that his big startle wasn’t because of the dog. He was anticipating ME snatching his face. In his mind, it went “see the dog, yada yada yada, get my face ripped off.” I realized that if I didn’t react to his leap, he didn’t go anywhere … and holy shit, he stopped leaping and startling at the dog. Angels sang, clouds parted.

I share this because your mare might also be anticipating your response, and that might actually be a bigger driver than the other horses. Just something to consider!

[OverandOnward]

@Simkie

Man, tough crowd. I think it’s a bummer that so many here think this horse won’t ever have this skill, when we don’t know what’s been done in an attempt to teach her how to ride out in a group.

No. The question is not whether this horse can accept training. The question from OP is whether she herself wants to face up to doing this training herself.

Although you say it’s ok not to challenge this reactive horse, you are still pressing that this behavior can be addressed by this rider. I don’t agree, if she doesn’t want to ride through it. Everyone has the right to say ‘no’, [whatever it is on a horse]_ is not for me.

Especially when training effectively means that yes, some difficult behavior may happen and the rider has to deal with it until things can be dialed down.

No rider is obliged to do everything, even if they have the technical skills. We as a horse community need to accept what other people decide is comfortable for them on their horse. And not pressure people to go farther than they want to. It’s their ride, their time on a horse, and this is supposed to be enjoyable.

From OP’s first post.

@cmdrcltr

I consider myself a solid intermediate rider, but my confidence falters easily if a horse plays up too much…

@cmdrcltr

I, however, am just not that brave; it’s not going to happen.

It’s ok not to deal with the reactive horse oneself. It’s ok to keep one’s riding to a quieter level.

[trubandloki]

@Simkie

Man, tough crowd. I think it’s a bummer that so many here think this horse won’t ever have this skill, when we don’t know what’s been done in an attempt to teach her how to ride out in a group.

I did not read the OP as asking if this horse was eventually trainable to do the things the OP wants to do, but more should the OP be OK with limiting what they do with their horse because the horse makes them nervous when it does not behave.

This horse might be the most perfect horse for some one else. That does not mean the OP has to be the type of person who wants to deal with a horse that will back into the bog on the side of the trail while it is having a meltdown. Nothing wrong with being the person who just wants to enjoy their horse and not train a horse that wants to be difficult.

[Simkie]

@OverandOnward

No. The question is not whether this horse can accept training. The question from OP is whether she herself wants to face up to doing this training herself.

Although you say it’s ok not to challenge this reactive horse, you are still pressing that this behavior can be addressed by this rider. I don’t agree, if she doesn’t want to ride through it. Everyone has the right to say ‘no’, [whatever it is on a horse] _ is not for me.

I think you’ve totally missed my point.

@Simkie

Knowing this horse isn’t ready to ride out in a large group, especially at speed, and saying no to those rides isn’t a bad thing. It’s not wrong, it’s not you being a chicken. It’s protecting your horse and setting her up for success. It’s choosing to not ask her a question you KNOW she can’t answer correctly.

I don’t think ANYONE should be taking this horse into this situation. I don’t think putting this horse in a large group and having her fail is the path forward AT ALL.

[Texarkana]

@Simkie

And just something to mull over: I also have a sensitive, very responsive horse. Although he is okay with contact, he would prefer if I didn’t touch his face. It’s been fun, because he’s so in tune with other cues. But he’s had this thing with the dog, where she startles him and he leaps forward or sideways and WHOA it feels like the first step of a run off. Not fun! Also frustrating because he’s literally seen that damned dog or another every single day for TEN YEARS. So WTF dude.

I realized, pretty much by accident, that his big startle wasn’t because of the dog. He was anticipating ME snatching his face. In his mind, it went “see the dog, yada yada yada, get my face ripped off.” I realized that if I didn’t react to his leap, he didn’t go anywhere … and holy shit, he stopped leaping and startling at the dog. Angels sang, clouds parted.

I share this because your mare might also be anticipating your response, and that might actually be a bigger driver than the other horses. Just something to consider!

This is a great example of what I was trying to say.

My anxiety was feeding into the explosiveness, much like dog incident.

I’d feel my horse tense, and I’d go into defensive mode. It got to the point where my horse was anticipating my defensive reaction, escalating the situation to evoke an even bigger reaction from her, either because she could sense her human’s nerves or because she was anticipating me getting snatchy /handsy in her mouth.

With the right people in my corner, this was a cycle I was able to break. It didn’t involve rocket science or Olympic-level ability. It just required awareness of what was happening.

[TWH_Girl]

@trubandloki

This horse might be the most perfect horse for some one else. That does not mean the OP has to be the type of person who wants to deal with a horse that will back into the bog on the side of the trail while it is having a meltdown. Nothing wrong with being the person who just wants to enjoy their horse and not train a horse that wants to be difficult.

I really empathize with the OP. The above post is so true. I had a quirky reactive horse who I sold at a loss just to be done. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine he’d end up as solid trail horse riding out solo and goin going on big trail riding trips to South Dakota. But he’s a different horse with his current owner than he was with me. The chemistry was just off.
I’ve learned to think of horses like dating or trying to find the right partner (which you are)…some are just not good matches. You can go to all the counseling -or training in this case - in the world and sometimes you just can’t fit that square peg in round hole. If it doesn’t fit, you just can’t force it.
It’s so hard and I am kinda there again in a way but mostly due to the fact that my guy is a greenie and needs lots more exposure. He’s got a good head though and so far his reactions are tolerable for me.
OP I wish you only the best. Just listen to that nagging deep down gut feeling because it’s usually spot on.

[Simkie]

To be clear, I don’t disagree that this should be fun and if the OP isn’t having fun, there’s no shame in moving this horse along. If riding out in big groups right now is what she wants to be doing, this horse doesn’t have that skill right now.

But that didn’t seem to be the question?

@cmdrcltr

Have you chosen to limit what you do with your horse or opt out of certain activities because the activity just sets your horse up for a melt down? Does it continue to bother you that you can’t do those certain activities? (For example, trail riding in a group larger than 3 or 4.)

And the OP says she enjoys these activities?

@cmdrcltr

There are some things I do enjoy about her. She is the most responsive horse I’ve ever ridden as far as using your body to navigate, unless she is in an overreactive brain moment. In the arena I can now pretty much think something and it happens. She is very sure-footed on the trail and doesn’t get upset by funky underfooting like riff-raff or mud, which my previous horse hated.

Asking questions of a horse that you know they can’t answer in the appropriate way is so unfair. It’s like having a kid in school fail a test, and just giving them the same test again expecting another result. You gotta review what they missed, figure out why–they don’t understand the material? the test time limit is an issue? something else?–and address that before retesting and expecting a better grade.

So no, I don’t think that limiting what questions are presented to the horse based on what you think they can answer correctly is wrong. It’s totally okay for @cmdrcltr to work this horse where both she AND the horse are comfortable and confident, and that will still move them both forward.

[BeeHoney]

I agree with selling the horse and finding a horse that is a better fit. It’s a lot to take on to retrain a horse with reactive behavior. It also is likely that the OP’s anxiety is feeding into the horse’s reactivity as well. Some horses need a rider who can just sit there and genuinely be unimpressed by the horse’s drama.

I certainly don’t think this horse is some kind of a hopeless case based on the info shared. It sounds like the horse might respond to training or experience or a different rider. Still, knowing the history of the horse being this way for an extended period of time does make me think that a lot of it is this horse’s basic personality.

I want to be clear that I am not throwing shade at all on the OP. I’ll use myself as an example–I’m an experienced rider and used to break babies and ride difficult horses for other people. But I had a bad fall a few years back, then had some time off for family reasons, and I’m just not as bold and carefree as I was previously. I have adequate skills, but I don’t have the desire to ride horses with this type of reactivity any more (I do like to ride in groups quite frequently), and I also have the self awareness to recognize that I no longer am reliably able to ride through this kind of behavior without having a reaction of my own that doesn’t help the situation.

[OverandOnward]

A very reactive horse is likely to continue being so, just because they are likely hard-wired that way. They can certainly learn to restrain their level of response. But they are likely to always be looky, even distractable. It’s important to consistently direct their attention back to the rider.

Some riders are fairly reactive, themselves, probably for the same reason – inner self-protective instinct. But that’s not a good pairing, because reaction begets reaction begets another reaction. Once the horse reacts to something, it becomes a ping-pong match of startling each other.

Reactive horses need a rider who is calmly paying attention. Not ignoring the horse – that creates more horse anxiety – but not ‘spooking’ themselves, as it were. Not changing anything just because the horse is reacting. The “yep I see it, it’s ok” message to the horse.

So yep, there is a personality reciprocation to matching horse and rider. I find that I can ride a fairly reactive horse. But it isn’t the most fun ride. To me it is wearing (less so if the horse does settle). But to a different type of rider, it’s an enjoyable stimulation, part of interacting with the horse.

I have a private theory, not validated by anything, that, in prey species, certain individuals are born to be the herd sentinels. The hyper-reactive horses alert to signs of predators, while the rest of the herd are head-down in the grass and less alert. As a result the entire herd is overall better nourished and more healthy, although that may be somewhat at the expense of the sentinel. I think we’ve all known horses who, even on their off time in pasture, paddock or stall, frequently have a head popping up to check out things that others didn’t even register.

[cmdrcltr]

Wow—thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read and chime in. I’m going to try to answer some questions in one post.

@trubandloki, @fivestrideline, @AllSport, and @tabula_rashah, to be fair, I did tell the other riders to go on. I did not feel that I couldn’t handle my mare from the ground. And the barn owner came back on her horse a little bit later to see if I was okay. When I said I wasn’t getting back on at the moment, she trotted back to the trail group.

@kaya842, my mare lives out 24/7 with one friend; the paddock isn’t large, but I do ride 3-5 days per week depending on the time of year. She eats almost a forage diet. She gets hay, hay-stretcher pellets, and maybe 3-4 cups of a pelleted complete feed each day. We are scheduled for a lameness exam on Friday but may have to reschedule due to impending weather.

@OverandOnward, thank you for your response because that sounds exactly like how my mare feels. Everything is absolutely fine until it isn’t. When I’m not at work I will watch the videos you shared.

@Texarkana, thank you for sharing your success story.

@Simkie, the first summer I had her, my mare would be extremely anxious alone on the trail and I started with very short loops at a walk. We generally can go out alone now on any trail on the property. She is not as ho-hum as she is in the arena, but I do ride on a totally loose rein at the walk and trot. I choose my days to canter by myself carefully, but when I do I would say I ride with a little shorter rein, but not solid contact. Just shorter enough so I can pull up quickly if needed. She is definitely most comfortable with one or two other horses. Really chill if it’s the middle of summer. I can ride comfortably at all three gaits on a loose rein, unless the other two horses are in front and riding away. Yesterday might have been an unfair ask, but given how great our rides had been over this past summer alone and with groups of 3-4, I didn’t think it was an unreasonable ask even though it turned out to be.

@TWH_Girl and @BeeHoney, thank you for your thoughts.

I get that my anxiety will add to the situation, but I don’t know if I can totally let go of it. I have let go of a lot of anxiety over the last three years learning to ride this horse after she flat out scared the bejesus out of me with her reactions. Heck, on one of our early rides she spooked sideways and bolted to the end of the arena because the rider on the horse next to me used a dressage whip on her horse. And I have learned a lot. But yesterday made me wonder if we’d reached the pinnacle of my growth on this horse.

[outerbanks77]

@TWH_Girl

I really empathize with the OP. The above post is so true. I had a quirky reactive horse who I sold at a loss just to be done. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine he’d end up as solid trail horse riding out solo and goin going on big trail riding trips to South Dakota. But he’s a different horse with his current owner than he was with me. The chemistry was just off.

One of the most interesting things I observed at my old barn - a lady had a TB mare that she had a lot of trouble with. She had kind of a high-strung personality (the person), and the mare was always cranky in her stall even when the owner was not around. Things ended when the mare got loose while being tacked up and kicked the owner. Someone bought the mare and kept her at the same barn, same stall, etc. The mare’s disposition completely changed. She stopped kicking at her neighbors, and just got quiet and content. The new owner loves her, and marvels at how calm and easy she is.

[CBoylen]

Your riding friends are real AHs. It doesn’t sound like your mare has a lot of experience trail riding, and these are all pretty normal reactions. It’s a skill a horse needs to be taught like any other.

@cmdrcltr

The three in front of me were allowing their horses to trot up any little rise, and my horse listened to me and waited to be allowed to go faster. We were relaxed and on a loose rein most of the time. About 2/3 of the way into our ride those horses trotted ahead up a very steep incline, and my horse exploded into a leap/buck in place

You only get so many of these “wait for it” moments on a green horse. Heck, if I’m behind a jigger I only get so many on my 9th season hunt horse. They eventually run out of patience. The bottom of a steep incline is usually where that happens. But, they can’t buck uphill, so you are best to go. Circling is not a great reaction because it removes them from the herd and then they get more upset, particularly if some AH passes you rudely! Or if a whole group of them canter off!
The fact that you were even able to hand walk the horse back to the barn tells me that it actually has a pretty level brain, cause God knows I don’t know many horses that would do that at that point. So I would suggest just more trail riding experience, but not with these people.

[173north]

A large group trail ride at faster paces is a big ask even for some very laid back horses - if you know anyone who foxhunts, they can tell you that some horses just CANNOT handle it and it’s not always the horses you expect.

If you were 95% happy with her in every other situation, I’d say accept this is a limitation of hers and enjoy her in other ways. But it sounds like her reactivity/anxiety is making you anxious and making riding less fun pretty consistently, and you two may just not be a good fit.

[joiedevie99]

@173north

A large group trail ride at faster paces is a big ask even for some very laid back horses - if you know anyone who foxhunts, they can tell you that some horses just CANNOT handle it and it’s not always the horses you expect.

If you were 95% happy with her in every other situation, I’d say accept this is a limitation of hers and enjoy her in other ways. But it sounds like her reactivity/anxiety is making you anxious and making riding less fun pretty consistently, and you two may just not be a good fit.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. A group trail ride with no pre-agreed limits, a bunch of rude people when the !@#$ hit the fan, and poor advice on how to handle the situation isn’t something I’d make a decision on a horse over. It’s probably fixable, but I totally get not being the one to do it.

If you loved everything about this horse, I’d either commit to sending the horse out for a serious training stint in this, or just not doing it. However, my sense is that this is just the wrong horse for you and the better decision is to move her on and find something that is better suited to you in all the other situations too.

[awaywego]

I have ridden exactly one horse in 40+ years who would not mind if other horses cantered away like that. I wouldn’t ride with these friends (??) again.

[OverandOnward]

I have to say that trail riding is somewhat like riding over jumps, or fox-hunting, or skiing – there are different levels. One needs to be sure that g-you are in the right group, over the right terrain, at the right speeds, for your skills & horse.

Because if the group is beyond your skills / terrain / height / etc., you can be in trouble when they go on to the more advanced segments of the day. Sometimes serious trouble with a potential for serious injuries.

On trail rides, the behavior and activity of each of the horses can heavily affect some or all of the horses. Horses are so keenly attuned to the herd, often over & above the humans. Without a lot of behavior conditioning they will focus on staying with the faster horses over what their own rider is telling them.

Any of the horses cantering (even galloping) on a trail ride is a very big level-up for the entire group from a more casual walk-trot pace. Depending on the preparedness and mentality of horses & riders. Introduced in a good way with a prepared horse and rider, it can be a happy event. Otherwise, this can be a problem and a major safety issue. For a number of reasons.

If there are riders who are not part of the regular group, for safety reasons the entire group has to key off of those riders, so as not to put them in danger. If the group doesn’t want to limit themselves that way then they need to be clear about accepting new people/horses on their rides.

One of the biggest problems on any trail ride is if some riders go faster than the others, when the other, slower horses are not ok with that. A potentially serious safety issue due to slower horses who feel panicky about being left behind – sometimes even if there are other, calm, slow horses with them.

Another huge potential problem is a rider unexpectedly, unannounced, breaking into a much faster gait than the others. Especially if they go shooting off at a canter or gallop. Other horses are very likely to be agitated and may try to go with the faster horse.

Trail rides need to be clear in advance, with all participants, about what will be happening. In the middle of a trail ride is not a good place to find out, as OP did, that one’s horse is not safe in this situation. Because it’s not like a rider finds out that a jump class is set high above their level, and can opt out.

Everyone on the trail ride needs to know what to expect before they ever put their horse on the trailer to go. They need to realistically access if their horse and their riding is ready for it.

New trail riders and/or horses new to trails have to be introduced in a learning environment, just like any other horse activity.

All that said … I’ve found that some trail riders are indeed AH’s with no respect for any rider who isn’t into galloping up the big hill. Or crossing the wide water, or navigating the steep gulch, or whatever are the challenges. I’ve met some who will tell everyone that their horse should be 100% trained for everything, and it’s your fault if they aren’t. They are hard-asses who have no sympathy if you are surprised by the trail challenges, or even get hurt. They don’t alert others to what they are doing next. They don’t check others for safety concerns. They fit the definition of an AH.

There are some trail riders who are what the endurance folks call “race-brained” – they are always fast, at the walk, trot, canter, over obstacles, etc. Some try to blame it on their energetic horse, but their horse is just reacting to what it is used to. These riders can be a problem for slower riders. They need to ride with a group that is similarly minded.

[OverandOnward]

@CBoylen

But, they can’t buck uphill, so you are best to go.

Except that when they crest up on the level spot at the top, that’s when some of them start bucking. Even the veteran trail horses, just for fun. Just be ready to ride it out.

[tabula_rashah]

For any trail ride, hike, trail run, climb etc that I do with a group, the rule is ALWAYS to go at the level of the person with the least experience/ ability. I feel like it’s the responsibility of the trail leader to make sure they are paying attention to the other group members and the responsibility of the other members of the group to be honest about their abilities. Anddd this is also why I almost always am out on trail by myself lol

PS edited to add that this is just a general comment, not a comment aimed at the OP

[ParadoxFarm]

@NoSuchPerson

I have strong feelings about this because I’ve been in your situation before and eventually it just sucks all the joy out of riding. Sell that “quirky” horse and buy one that makes you feel safe, comfortable, and happy.

I completely agree with this. Life’s too short to settle when you don’t have to. This horse may be the perfect match for someone. It’s okay if it’s not you. I think you should find a horse that you feel completely safe on that will enjoy doing what you want to do. I wish you luck and encouragement and virtual hugs.

[Simkie]

@cmdrcltr

I can ride comfortably at all three gaits on a loose rein, unless the other two horses are in front and riding away.

If you’d like to continue with this horse, it sounds like this is her sweet spot and where you should be working. Unless you get that big reaction with horses riding away even here, in which case it sounds like she needs one step back.

You don’t have to be a hero. And putting her in situations where you DO have to hero is unfair to you both.

My gelding is a lot like how you describe your mare. He’s reactive, and worries, and he’s just not very resilient. He’s not fond of surprises or change. So I change one thing at a time, and that keeps him in a comfortable space, and that builds trust. And it’s been amazing how much more grounded he’s gotten by just…asking him for things he knows he knows how to answer.

Going from a ride with a couple others to a ride with 8 others and cantering is a lot of change. Man, that’s a big ask. That’s like asking a horse and rider who are comfortable over cross rails and little verticals to go jump a 4’ course. And no shade–I totally understand that maybe your group said they’d just be walking, that they wouldn’t ride away, that they’d take care of you. Sometimes I run into stuff with my guy too that’s unexpected (we saw a deer in a weird place once that FREAKED HIM OUT so bad. No way to predict that!)

But this wound up being a really big ask for your horse, and a really big leap forward from where she’s been working well, and it’s her bugaboo. It’s totally okay if this is just the proverbial straw and you just don’t want to keep doing this with her, but it’s also useful to recognize that you asked for something unfair here, something that she wasn’t prepared to answer correctly.

And think about your riding friends? And your trainer? Because what they did here was super shitty. If your trainer was on this ride, why did she not rein in the group? Why did she not trade horses with you if she saw you having so much difficulty? Especially since she was on such a solid citizen.

I’m really sorry you had this experience. Riding should be fun. If you have fun with this horse working at the things she’s good at, and you’re confident there, you don’t have to do bigger things that you both are uncomfortable with. It’s totally okay to stick to stuff you’re both confident in, and that won’t prevent you from moving forward.

But if you’re not happy working there, or just not happy with her in general, totally reasonable to move her along.