OP, what will do you if/when you discover that the jumper/trainer does something you don’t like. There are only so many sandboxes you can storm off from in a huff 
no person and discipline is perfect.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;7679562]
Oh for god’s sake, they are not illegal drugs. This posturing is just ridiculous. “Drugging” a horse is referring to giving it something against USEF rules. Giving a horse a LEGAL anti-inflammatory when it’s at a show is NOT drugging.
Hey, guess what - Wondermare gets some robaxin the night after a big class.
(If we’re going to be honest, I get some too.)
If you’re trying to claim that eventers or people in other disciplines never ever give their horses an NSAID after competing, then… I don’t really know what to say. FEI horses can’t show on NSAIDs, but they can on Adequan, Legend, Pentosan, etc.
If you don’t want to do the hunters and you want to pretend that everyone in the hunter world rides off the end of a needle, fine. If you want to be completely unrealistic and think that a legal amount of an anti-inflammatory counts as a drug, go for it. But if you want to say that type of thing on a hunter/jumper forum, don’t be surprised when the people who actually know about it either think you’re completely ridiculous or offensive.
Once again, the majority of people on this board do things the right way, which is not using illegal substances as performance enhancers.[/QUOTE]
Yes, this.
[QUOTE=findeight;7679565]Yeah, they are drugs, but there are legitimate therapeutic reasons-like living in a 10x10 tent stall on a parking lot with no turn out, change of feeding schedules and usually in the feed itself when traveling ( can’t bring hay for 24 horses from home when on the road for 6 weeks). And there are established thresholds which, if exceeded, mean a hearing, fine and possibly suspension especially if it’s not a first offense.
There’s a big enough problem with numerous substances specifically given to enhance performance and lack of enforcement by USEF without adding those whose use can be appropriate.[/QUOTE]
And this.
I’m probably one of the most anti-drug people ever, but even I don’t have a problem with therapeutic use of legal meds. There is a difference between easing some soreness and sedating a hunter so it doesn’t move its tail in the corner. One is done for the benefit of the horse, the other for the benefit of the rider. If you’re using meds for the latter reason, we can’t be friends, but using meds for the former reason is called horsemanship in the modern age.
Okay. I stand corrected. But my admonition stands as is. Head trainer is the BOSS of Assistant Trainer. HT is where the buck stops.
Talk to HT.
OPs gone,a I think.
But not speaking up to head trainer who employs AT and trusts them to manage the barn, horses and clients in their absence is hardly taking a stance against use of drugs as performance enhancers or to solve training/rider problems?
Who knows what AT will tell HT. Especially if HT would not like hearing what actually happened. Maybe they don’t care or even condone it but maybe AT overstepped her job description and is more worried about CYA and keeping her job then honestly telling HT why OP is leaving.
Just in case OP is still reading, it’s a total waste of time and energy to write USEF about what you saw as USEF has absolutely zero authority or jurisdiction over what it’s members do in the privacy of their own home barns on their own property. Only at USEF licensed competitions.
The world is full of people seeking an excuse, justification, validation for bowing out of Whatever because their egos won’t let them own the fact that either they made a big mistake, lack the necessary guts or stick-to-itiveness to become successful, or in truth are looking for a reason for that “forward, strong” horse to become a Pasture Puff. You can’t believe the people I’ve seen who are so relieved when they “can no longer ride” due to the horse’s unsoundness! The truth was, they weren’t enjoying riding to begin with, but very much enjoy horses.
At least 2/3 of the happily owned horses in my county right now I would estimate are Pasture Puffs, and since I cater to the crowd, mostly older adults, “who just want my horse to be happy” I’m totally FINE with that.
It sounds to me like the OP got talked into something that sounded like it had a lot of social traction without realizing what it really entailed, possibly having invested a serious sum of money. Apparently having barely wet her feet yet in the training (stated she has never yet shown), she realizes she actually has no interest in that scene, and can well afford to keep her horse as a pet. So, fine! Nobody ever said everyone must train hard, jump in shows, justify one’s ownership of a quality animal.
In any venue where money and ego coincide in “winning”–be it horses, cycling, football, any sport you can name let alone business or taking SAT’s–people will always be seeking “an edge.” Many do it legitimately, some will always go outside the rules. It is human nature.
OP, if you don’t want to compete in hunter shows, don’t. There is no moral-high-ground justification required. But you must understand that condemnation of an entire sport and all its participants is hardly justified just because you don’t want to participate. You will not be missed there, the trainer will fill the hour with a different student, the proverbial ship will sail on.
I hope you enjoy your horse more without all that pressure.
If people would read all of the posts they would see that the OP did talk to the trainer, and heard from that person that it is impossible to be in a big show program without using drugs, and has left that barn’s program.
So, one can’t blame her for jetting away. If she truly has a nice, high quality hunter, though, it seems silly for her to boost the whole thing because of one bad barn and their belief that calming drugs are the way to go for success.
I do the jumpers but I train with an eventer and most of my friends event. I do love that there is more of a culture of DIY in that side of the sport, and (like jumpers) there is really no reason for giving a horse a sedative to compete! On the other hand, not all eventers are fabulous horsemen, and for some of them that I have seen it is apparent that it would be better if they worked more with a trainer and were a bit less DIY. Being an eventer doesn’t automatically make a person a fabulous rider or horseman, just as doing the hunters doesn’t automatically make one an injection-happy jerkoff.
As so many other people have said, there are good and bad apples throughout the sport and it is really not so difficult to become an informed person and suss out the programs that fall within one’s personal parameters.
Gotta say this thread has been informative in unexpected ways.
As far as the “bad apple” analogy which has cropped up so often here… the form in which I am familiar with the proverb is “One bad apple spoils the bushel.” That is, if you have bad apples the whole bushel has a problem.
It is human to generalize. While I wish that OP had given the discipline another try, her reaction is a data point. From a marketing perspective, perhaps.
I think you’d be surprised at how many big name barns use mag to show. We won’t know for sure until USEF finds a way to test it, but IMHO it’s used quite regularly.
sadly, this does seem to be a part of h/ j land now; my one winter at awellington, only for the weekend, I slept in my truck and woke to find grooms who, barely spoke English giving IV shots, all around me; I watched a younggirl,lSS size holding a carrot for her horse while he was being injected by the groom in the 90ies I worked briefly at two h/j stables; both owned by very wealthy people who, needed to win for their "social standing; what you describe seems sadly, to have become “the norm”
sadly, this does seem to be a part of h/ j land now; my one winter at awellington, only for the weekend, I slept in my truck and woke to find grooms who, barely spoke English giving IV shots, all around me; I watched a younggirl,lSS size holding a carrot for her horse while he was being injected by the groom in the 90ies I worked briefly at two h/j stables; both owned by very wealthy people who, needed to win for their "social standing; what you describe seems sadly, to have become “the norm”
[QUOTE=Carol Ames;7680965]
sadly, this does seem to be a part of h/ j land now; my one winter at awellington, only for the weekend, I slept in my truck and woke to find grooms who, barely spoke English giving IV shots, all around me; I watched a younggirl,lSS size holding a carrot for her horse while he was being injected by the groom in the 90ies I worked briefly at two h/j stables; both owned by very wealthy people who, needed to win for their "social standing; what you describe seems sadly, to have become “the norm”[/QUOTE]
Yes, there are bad people doing bad things. And I’m sure there is more use of drugs like Ace than there was in the past. But I take exception to a couple of points in your post…
I just don’t see how you can conclude that the injections you saw at Wellington or with the SS kid holding her horse were of the nefarious sort based on your post. My horse got IV banamine while showing because he reacted poorly to bute. There are sometimes reasonable explanations for things that appear to be otherwise.
And the grooms who ‘barely spoke English’…not sure how that’s relevant to a person’s ability to do their job or to give an injection?
It used to be that horses needing bute weren’t usually found at shows. That was decades ago, though. The more drugs I saw in barns that I either boarded at or worked at the more I have backed away.
Reality Check, #2:
There are people in the supermarket line and in traffic, ahead of you and behind you, ON DRUGS. Sometimes VERY BAD things . . . including booze.
Your kid may be up against his peers who are taking college board exams on Adderall to enhance their focus. Sometimes with parents’ encouragement! They may get into Harvard that way and your clean kid won’t. (Life. Ain’t. Fair!)
Your mother may have some Little Helper when she goes to speak at Town meetings; does your Dad have a Scotch most nights after work to unwind?
I suppose your college dorm never smelled like weed, right? Shoot, even in a CONVENT there’s weed!
That cute guy next to you at the gym bench-pressing his weight just may be shooting up steroids along with his interesting diet of mostly Hydroxycut.
And, the person puking in the start box at a horse trial may be hung over, not scared.
You going to attempt to “police” the whole wide world? Or flounce because it doesn’t meet your standards? Whatever happened to LEADING BY EXAMPLE?
So better get a T-shirt printed up that says, “WELL! I NEVER!” if you want to maintain that moral high ground . . . air gets a bit thin up there, ayup! :lol:
Well, America is the No. 1 drug using country in the 1st World isn’t it?
The problem with all of that in barns and at shows is that you are dragging your horse around with you and it is not always easy to get out of the way of a person that doesn’t really give a damn about what kind of damage can occur … horse accidents and the like.
[QUOTE=snaffle635;7682314]
And the grooms who ‘barely spoke English’…not sure how that’s relevant to a person’s ability to do their job or to give an injection?[/QUOTE]
Ok, let’s say they all spoke English.
Why is it ok for a groom to give an IV injection ?
Will he pay the vet bill if something goes wrong ?
A few years ago a well known west coast jumper trainer was suspended by the FEI for drugging his clients’ horses. His defense was that a groom from ANOTHER barn had given his groom the drug. His groom then gave it to his clients’ horse(s).
The trainer never disputed that the horses were drugged, only that he had nothing to do with it, and it was the other groom’s fault.
Who’s in charge here ? The trainers or the grooms ?
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7682364]
Reality Check, #2:
There are people in the supermarket line and in traffic, ahead of you and behind you, ON DRUGS. Sometimes VERY BAD things . . . including booze.
Your kid may be up against his peers who are taking college board exams on Adderall to enhance their focus. Sometimes with parents’ encouragement! They may get into Harvard that way and your clean kid won’t. (Life. Ain’t. Fair!)
Your mother may have some Little Helper when she goes to speak at Town meetings; does your Dad have a Scotch most nights after work to unwind?
I suppose your college dorm never smelled like weed, right? Shoot, even in a CONVENT there’s weed!
That cute guy next to you at the gym bench-pressing his weight just may be shooting up steroids along with his interesting diet of mostly Hydroxycut.
And, the person puking in the start box at a horse trial may be hung over, not scared.
You going to attempt to “police” the whole wide world? Or flounce because it doesn’t meet your standards? Whatever happened to LEADING BY EXAMPLE?
So better get a T-shirt printed up that says, “WELL! I NEVER!” if you want to maintain that moral high ground . . . air gets a bit thin up there, ayup! :lol:[/QUOTE]
Can I get the T-shirt just because? :winkgrin: :lol:
BTW, agree with your entire post!
Sorry but this thread is sad to read… Just because everybody seems to take drugs and gives drugs to their horses and gives huge explanations why this is right doesnt make it right:(
I feel like a dinosaur…
My horses definitely dont get anything, how do they survive???
It’s become apparent to me that my perspective is so outside the norm in this discipline that it doesn’t even register (or maybe most people here have put the annoying eventer on ignore :lol:)…
But no, I would not show if I truly felt my horse needed banamine and robaxin as a preventative all the time just to be at the show. Of course I would and have given some bute for an older horse after a show if I felt he might benefit, and I once used robaxin while we were sorting out a back issue…not at a show of course.
But if the horse truly needed to be on two drugs just to be comfortable under the conditions at a show, before even doing anything? Why don’t you think that is wrong?
And before I get hit with the adequan argument, yes, I use adequan for my big older horse with arthritis. I use it over the course of the year per my vet to make him comfortable in basic work. He is happier and healthier working than standing around. For me, showing is recreational only and to be done only if the horse can do it within the context of his regular program and healthcare. If he starts needing extra just to feed my desire to show, that is a sign to step down the showing, not step up the interventions.
Posted by Manni01:
I feel like a dinosaur…
:lol:
I became a dinosaur around age 20 and then a truly fossilized biped at about age 30 when I finally realized that some people really are not into horses because they love them.
ETA: For some perspective, I stated riding when I was 3 and am now 62.
[QUOTE=asterix;7682812]
It’s become apparent to me that my perspective is so outside the norm in this discipline that it doesn’t even register (or maybe most people here have put the annoying eventer on ignore :lol:)…
But no, I would not show if I truly felt my horse needed banamine and robaxin as a preventative all the time just to be at the show. Of course I would and have given some bute for an older horse after a show if I felt he might benefit, and I once used robaxin while we were sorting out a back issue…not at a show of course.
But if the horse truly needed to be on two drugs just to be comfortable under the conditions at a show, before even doing anything? Why don’t you think that is wrong?
And before I get hit with the adequan argument, yes, I use adequan for my big older horse with arthritis. I use it over the course of the year per my vet to make him comfortable in basic work. He is happier and healthier working than standing around. For me, showing is recreational only and to be done only if the horse can do it within the context of his regular program and healthcare. If he starts needing extra just to feed my desire to show, that is a sign to step down the showing, not step up the interventions.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know why I’m trying to explain it to you, because I’m getting the feeling that no matter what anyone says, you’re going to be stuck in your opinion, which is that giving your horse anything (apparently aside from Adequan) is wrong and makes you a terrible horseman.
My horse does not need [naproxen, in her case] and robaxin “just to be at the show.” She doesn’t “truly need” them. She’s fit, she’s happy, and she does her job splendidly (which is good since I tend to get in her way a lot).
She’s also 18 and a high performance athlete. So yes, I give her naproxen and robaxin after a big class. Does she need it? No, probably not - because I don’t give her those at home. But at home, she’s in a big stall with rubber mats, not a 9x9 or 10x10 with a concrete base, and she gets to go outside, whereas at the horse show, she doesn’t have the same opportunities. She gets these permitted medications because it MIGHT give her slightly more comfort after she worked, and if I can make her more comfortable within the rules, I will. Sorry, that’s not wrong to me.
We can agree to disagree. You can choose not to give your horse anything, ever. I can choose to maintain my 18-year-old grand prix horse on a program that is permitted under the USEF rules and will not feel guilty about it.
