Just saw proof that I ride at a HJ barn that uses drugs

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7682874]
It’s really unfair to come from one discipline and paint another with a broad brush. I guess we drug but at least we don’t ride 'till the tounge is blue or routinely kill our horses/riders with rotational falls. Every sport has its dark side, doesn’t mean everyone plays that way or that it’s fair to generalize.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.
As for blue tongues (dressage), they’re caused by the tongue getting caught between the snaffle and the curb on a double bridle, or poor fitting bits. Once discovered, it’s quickly remedied. It’s not caused by over riding.

As for deaths by rotational falls (eventing) have you seen the COTH commentary in the July 14 & 21 issue focusing on eventing ? Beth Raisin wrote: " More often that not, horse deaths on course result from cardiac failures, not falls at a fence. Cardiac problems are reported to have caused the deaths of both Jordan McDonald, the rider who was killed at Nunney, and Liberal, the horse who died at Luhmuhlen."

As we know, a cardiac failure felled Hickstead after he finished a jumper course in Italy.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Mardi;7683868]
Agreed.
As for blue tongues (dressage), they’re caused by the tongue getting caught between the snaffle and the curb on a double bridle, or poor fitting bits. Once discovered, it’s quickly remedied. It’s not caused by over riding.

As for deaths by rotational falls (eventing) have you seen the COTH commentary in the July 14 & 21 issue focusing on eventing ? Beth Raisin wrote: " More often that not, horse deaths on course result from cardiac failures, not falls at a fence. Cardiac problems are reported to have caused the deaths of both Jordan McDonald, the rider who was killed at Nunney, and Liberal, the horse who died at Luhmuhlen."

As we know, a cardiac failure felled Hickstead after he finished a jumper course in Italy.[/QUOTE]

I was throwing those out as examples of things that can appear nefarious from outside… but from the inside can be nefarious OR not. Blue tongues can be from rollkur OR, as you suggest, from an accident. Falls and deaths can be from lack of preparation/poor course designing/gunning on at any cost OR as you suggest, from latent health conditions. You’re making my point-- from the outside of any situation in the abstract it’s hard to judge. IN the specific circumstance, you can make meaningful judgments.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=snaffle635;7683348]
And as it pertains to this thread, I’m not sure your point about who’s in charge is all that relevant. [/QUOTE]

When I asked Who’s in charge ? it was not meant as a legal question.
As an owner, I would never want my horse injected with a drug provided by a groom from another barn (as in the case of the FEI suspended jumper trainer).

So in the story told by the OP, did the assistant trainer have the consent of the owner to inject the horse that someone else was riding ? Who knows.

Sometimes the lack of supervision when it comes to medicating other people’s horses is stunning.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=snaffle635;7683348]
It’s ok for experienced grooms to give injections for several reasons:
a - it’s not illegal…see article here: http://www.proequinegrooms.com/index.php/news/employment-issues/what-if-you-are-asked-to-give-a-horse-some-injections/
b - they are acting at the direction of the trainer and vet
c - many of them are excellent caretakers of their horses

And as it pertains to this thread, I’m not sure your point about who’s in charge is all that relevant. In the OP’s case, the injection was given by an assistant trainer. Drugs are drugs, whether given by the trainer, vet, groom, owner, or rider.[/QUOTE]

I asked a member of the Board of Registration in Veterinary Medicine in my state this question, and was told most emphatically “NO. It is not allowed.”

As to whether or not it is enforced/enforceable, well, that’s another question.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=Perfect10;7675779]
OverandOnward, do you ride hunters?[/QUOTE]

Did for several years, some time ago.

@Threeplainbays;7679104

… He’s only known life as a Show Hunter, so I don’t think he’s suitable for re-training to another discipline. …

@RugBug;7679120

… Guaranteed your horse doesn’t know he’s a hunter. He knows he jumps things. Put your big girl pants on and go XC, take him hunting, do some dressage. He won’t die…and you might not either.

Yeah that!

There are lots of ex-h/j’s in eventing and/or dressage. There are horses & riders that compete in all three, either for schooling or because the owner enjoys it. Eventing is a new journey, but it often works out as a great adventure. You’ll get to know your horse in new and deeper ways.

@BaroquePony;7682433

Well, America is the No. 1 drug using country in the 1st World isn’t it? …

Where did you get that statistic? What’s it based on - total population, percentage of population? Not that it matters …

[Lix_Tetrax]

Hey eventers… You do realize you have your own forum right

[skydy]

[QUOTE=Lix Tetrax;7684107]
Hey eventers… You do realize you have your own forum right[/QUOTE]

Buck up and mind your manners. We all are allowed our opinions . :winkgrin:

Really? You are telling people not to speak? Most of us left high school a LONG time ago.

Most everyone who comments on different forums, has had experience (or has a vested interest) in many aspects of the horse world and their words are well worth your reading time.

OPEN MIND= education.

[Dewey]

[QUOTE=Lix Tetrax;7684107]
Hey eventers… You do realize you have your own forum right[/QUOTE]

You have got to be kidding. Eventers, please ignore this. You may have noticed that I have posted on your forum occasionally!

[BaroquePony]

I actually was going on financial statistics, which is not the same thing as true usage statistics … however, the US is known for being pretty dedicated to using drugs, which includes alcohol and everything else.

Posted by OverandOnward: [QUOTE]Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony

Well, America is the No. 1 drug using country in the 1st World isn’t it? …

Where did you get that statistic? What’s it based on - total population, percentage of population? Not that it matters …[/QUOTE]

[VCT]

You do realize you are equating accidents with purposeful drugging…. right?

Sorry, but that just proves how inured H/J land is to the practice of drugging in order to compete.

[QUOTE=vxf111;7683871]
I was throwing those out as examples of things that can appear nefarious from outside… but from the inside can be nefarious OR not. Blue tongues can be from rollkur OR, as you suggest, from an accident. Falls and deaths can be from lack of preparation/poor course designing/gunning on at any cost OR as you suggest, from latent health conditions. You’re making my point-- from the outside of any situation in the abstract it’s hard to judge. IN the specific circumstance, you can make meaningful judgments.[/QUOTE]

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=VCT;7684272]
You do realize you are equating accidents with purposeful drugging…. right?

Sorry, but that just proves how inured H/J land is to the practice of drugging in order to compete.[/QUOTE]

I’m not equating them AT ALL. You need to go back and re-read my posts because that’s not at ALL what I am saying. I am saying that every sport has aspects that might look different from the outside than the inside. Asterix is aghast that people give show horses bute. From the inside, we know that stabling and showing conditions can lead to stiffness/soreness. That’s an example of a situation that looks different on the outside than the inside. You’re not at all understanding anything I have said. I have never equated an accident with purposeful drugging. Nor am I a “drugging apologist.” If you read my posts, I think you’ll find I am pretty squarely in the “disgusted at the state of drugging in hunters and wants something done about it” camp. The post you’re citing out of context was part of the discussion with asterix about why some limited NSAIDs are allowed for H/J even if they’re not allowed for eventing. Completely different conversation/issue.

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7682364]
Reality Check, #2:

There are people in the supermarket line and in traffic, ahead of you and behind you, ON DRUGS. Sometimes VERY BAD things . . . including booze.

Your kid may be up against his peers who are taking college board exams on Adderall to enhance their focus. Sometimes with parents’ encouragement! They may get into Harvard that way and your clean kid won’t. (Life. Ain’t. Fair!)

Your mother may have some Little Helper when she goes to speak at Town meetings; does your Dad have a Scotch most nights after work to unwind?

I suppose your college dorm never smelled like weed, right? Shoot, even in a CONVENT there’s weed!

That cute guy next to you at the gym bench-pressing his weight just may be shooting up steroids along with his interesting diet of mostly Hydroxycut.

And, the person puking in the start box at a horse trial may be hung over, not scared.

You going to attempt to “police” the whole wide world? Or flounce because it doesn’t meet your standards? Whatever happened to LEADING BY EXAMPLE?

So better get a T-shirt printed up that says, “WELL! I NEVER!” if you want to maintain that moral high ground . . . air gets a bit thin up there, ayup! :lol:[/QUOTE]

In all these examples, the PEOPLE are making the choice to drug themselves. In the land of 10X10 stalls, and weeks on the road with no turnout, the people are still making the choice. But they aren’t drugging themselves…

[Lix_Tetrax]

If it’s not how you want to roll, that’s your decision. Go the way the OP did if you want. Free country.

I’m also not sure how education consists of people who don’t do the discipline that the entire discipline is a massive drugging mess. Yes, hunters has a few issues. We’re working on it.

In the meantime, us hunters are not heading to eventing to tell you what’s wrong with your discipline. Because we don’t do it, why should we tell you how to?

If you can find three threads in eventing where someone who does the hunters goes after some part (or all) of eventing, then so be it. I stand corrected. I will gladly shut my uneducated mouth, promise. Go find it first.

[Nickelodian]

[QUOTE=Lix Tetrax;7684314]

In the meantime, us hunters are not heading to eventing to tell you what’s wrong with your discipline. Because we don’t do it, why should we tell you how to?

If you can find three threads in eventing where someone who does the hunters goes after some part (or all) of eventing, then so be it. I stand corrected. I will gladly shut my uneducated mouth, promise. Go find it first.[/QUOTE]

No, we’re quietly judging them with a cocktail in hand. That’s how we roll after all.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7683887]
I asked a member of the Board of Registration in Veterinary Medicine in my state this question, and was told most emphatically “NO. It is not allowed.”

As to whether or not it is enforced/enforceable, well, that’s another question.[/QUOTE]

Second this. IIRC, in most states it would be considered practicing veterinary medicine without a license. Enforced? I don’t know.

[SaturdayNightLive]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7684409]
Second this. IIRC, in most states it would be considered practicing veterinary medicine without a license. Enforced? I don’t know.[/QUOTE]

What would be? Giving injections?

If giving an injection is practicing medicine without a license, we’re all in trouble.

[HappyTalk]

[QUOTE=SaturdayNightLive;7684467]
What would be? Giving injections?

If giving an injection is practicing medicine without a license, we’re all in trouble.[/QUOTE]

I think it is OK if you are giving the injection to your own horse. It is a violation if you are giving to someone’s else’s horse.

[whbar158]

In most states it is illegal for anyone to inject your horse besides yourself or your vet. Now it is not enforced much and I personally have given injections (IM) to other peoples horses at their request.

Also pretty much all sports have their dark side of cheating or lots of gray area of the rules some just get more publicity than others. Is there a drugging problem in the hunters? Yes I would say so does that mean everyone is cheating? No

[zipperfoot]

Correct. It’s my understanding that you can give your own horse anything you want. The questionable practice is giving someone else’s horse an injection unless you’re an employee of that person. Many states stipulate that IV injections (and some other treatments) are legal only if performed by a licensed veterinary technician under the direct or in some cases indirect supervision of a licensed veterinarian. “Direct supervision” means the vet is right there, “indirect supervision” means the vet is nearby, i.e., on the premises within calling distance.

There are some exclusions to these laws–researchers etc. Depends on the individual state.

Working from memory here–any other vets care to contribute?

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=SaturdayNightLive;7684467]
What would be? Giving injections?

If giving an injection is practicing medicine without a license, we’re all in trouble.[/QUOTE]

In most states, administering drugs to your own animals is permitted. In some states, administering drugs to animals owned by your employer is permitted. In my state, administering drugs to a client’s animal, a friend’s animal, etc. is not permitted.

I proposed several fairly specific scenarios to the Board representative, and he was pretty emphatic. (one example, as I teach veterinary technicians, was “vet tech has a friend whose horse needs an injection. Owner is chicken about injections. OK for friend to do it for her?” No. Unless horse is in the clinic the tech works at, and tech is under the supervision of the DVM who has ordered the meds, not okay.)

As I said, it is fairly unenforceable, and usually only comes into play when something goes wrong. But I warn my students not to get sucked in.