Just saw proof that I ride at a HJ barn that uses drugs

[snaffle635]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7684640]
In most states, administering drugs to your own animals is permitted. In some states, administering drugs to animals owned by your employer is permitted. In my state, administering drugs to a client’s animal, a friend’s animal, etc. is not permitted.

I proposed several fairly specific scenarios to the Board representative, and he was pretty emphatic. (one example, as I teach veterinary technicians, was “vet tech has a friend whose horse needs an injection. Owner is chicken about injections. OK for friend to do it for her?” No. Unless horse is in the clinic the tech works at, and tech is under the supervision of the DVM who has ordered the meds, not okay.)

As I said, it is fairly unenforceable, and usually only comes into play when something goes wrong. But I warn my students not to get sucked in.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info. You learn something new every day.

[asterix]

[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7683844]

FWIW, my 14 yo 17.2 hand creakster of a TJ gets injectable banamine and robaxin each night before showing as a part of his routine when on the road. He literally stands head to tail bone against the wall in a 10x10 stall, and he’s sore and stiff from it when he comes out in the morning. At home when he’s in his 14x14 stall and on all night turn out it’s a non issue. We ask a lot of our equine athletes, they weren’t meant to jump sticks for fun.[/QUOTE]

Right. Makes sense. When my horse can’t jump sticks for fun without preventative drugs, he doesn’t jump sticks for fun any more. I wouldn’t put him in a box where he stands “head to tail bone against the wall” all night on a routine basis, either.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=asterix;7684751]
Right. Makes sense. When my horse can’t jump sticks for fun without preventative drugs, he doesn’t jump sticks for fun any more. I wouldn’t put him in a box where he stands “head to tail bone against the wall” all night on a routine basis, either.[/QUOTE]

Maybe someone should tell the O’Connors that Mandiba doesn’t want to jump sticks anymore

Horses get pushed longer than the probably would themselves go/should go in all sorts of disciplines, for all sorts of reasons.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=Lix Tetrax;7684107]
Hey eventers… You do realize you have your own forum right[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Lix Tetrax;7684314]… In the meantime, us hunters are not heading to eventing to tell you what’s wrong with your discipline. Because we don’t do it, why should we tell you how to?

If you can find three threads in eventing where someone who does the hunters goes after some part (or all) of eventing, then so be it. I stand corrected. I will gladly shut my uneducated mouth, promise. Go find it first.[/QUOTE]

Who is “we”? Who is “you”?

Wondering if you are thinking COTH posters have to pick a forum to be their principal COTH identity. Also wondering if those who have picked the h/j forum have picked you as their spokesperson. And maybe designated you the scary mad dog to run off those dang trespassers.

Us? Them?

:lol:

You might want to take a look around and notice that you are on the internet.

[Lix_Tetrax]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7685037]
Who is “we”? Who is “you”?

Wondering if you are thinking COTH posters have to pick a forum to be their principal COTH identity. Also wondering if those who have picked the h/j forum have picked you as their spokesperson. And maybe designated you the scary mad dog to run off those dang trespassers.

Us? Them?

:lol:

You might want to take a look around and notice that you are on the internet. ;)[/QUOTE]

I take it you are familiar with something called “general”? Like general us/you/we… I thought it was pretty obviously implied. Guess not - my error, sorry. And yes, I am well aware I’m on the internet!

I’m not the spokesperson or scary mad dog here. Certainly not designated! :lol: :lol: no one would pick me - Pit, I wouldn’t pick me. I am just venting my frustration with eventers (or dressage folks) coming to the hunter forum and bashing the sport. Saying a few truthful things is fine, it’s a discussion. Points are debated, opinions fly, shackles get raised.

It’s the continuous bashing (and not just this thread) that leaves me upset. Hunters have some issues, yes. It’s pathetic we (remember that general thing?) have let it go this far. But there is so much this sport can offer. Don’t discount/bash/write off an entire discipline just because “well I wouldn’t do that”. That’s all I’m trying to say. Granted, I got way too snappy about the whole thing.

With all that said… I can be pretty mean… Not scary :sigh: but doglike enough, if the position is available. :yes: :winkgrin:

[Threeplainbays]

[QUOTE=Lix Tetrax;7685084]
I am just venting my frustration with eventers (or dressage folks) coming to the hunter forum and bashing the sport. Saying a few truthful things is fine, it’s a discussion. Points are debated, opinions fly, shackles get raised.

It’s the continuous bashing (and not just this thread) that leaves me upset. Hunters have some issues, yes. It’s pathetic we (remember that general thing?) have let it go this far. [/QUOTE]

Then the participants INSIDE the discipline need to CLEAN IT UP.

I decided to contact the Head Trainer. The vague answers I received to straightforward questions were asinine.

It was quite clear that they were less interested in truthful dialogue and more interested in retaining an owner that expected to pay upwards of $80,000 over the next several months.

A fool and his money are soon parted, but my checkbook is closed.

[HiddenAcres]

The participants at the trainers are not usually horsemen. They are investors, and they just don’t know enough about horses and sportsmanship to say anything or leave. They are the Enron auditors saying “but the lawyers said it was ok”.

The scariest ones are the young trainers who came up in this culture and truly don’t see anything wrong with it.

You can do this on your own. Set one fence at 3 ft 3, eventually the whole course, then one at 3 ft 6 eventually the whole course.

You’ve taken on the horse drug culture - 6 inches over a year will feel like nothing! Thanks for stepping up and being outraged.

This guy had a very good “we don’t drug” reputation and maybe there is something to the “environmental contamination” defense,but how sad.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?442412-Can-you-judge-while-you-are-suspended-(RE-Shane-George)

[GoneAway]

@Lix Tetrax;7685084

I take it you are familiar with something called “general”? Like general us/you/we… I thought it was pretty obviously implied. Guess not - my error, sorry. And yes, I am well aware I’m on the internet!

I’m not the spokesperson or scary mad dog here. Certainly not designated! :lol: :lol: no one would pick me - Pit, I wouldn’t pick me. I am just venting my frustration with eventers (or dressage folks) coming to the hunter forum and bashing the sport. Saying a few truthful things is fine, it’s a discussion. Points are debated, opinions fly, shackles get raised.

Bluntness time: 1) The hunter discipline doesn’t need you or a couple people on the internet to defend it.

2. If you haven’t seen the bickering and “bashing” between disciplines (including hunters ragging on dressage, eventing, or western/stock horse hunters), then you haven’t been posting on horse forums very long. It’s happened here on COTH, it happens all the time on other forums…the internet is a place where people post under the veil of anonymity and feel like they can (or should) say whatever they want, whether you want to hear it or not. Simply saying “Stay out of my sandbox!” isn’t going to stop that. So either put those posters on “ignore,” or stay off the forum. Or, as a third option, try to see the good points in some of those tough to read posts. Sometimes even the ones you feel are “bashing” have an underlying point that is worth considering.

It’s the continuous bashing (and not just this thread) that leaves me upset. Hunters have some issues, yes. It’s pathetic we (remember that general thing?) have let it go this far. But there is so much this sport can offer. Don’t discount/bash/write off an entire discipline just because “well I wouldn’t do that”. That’s all I’m trying to say. Granted, I got way too snappy about the whole thing.

As stated above, then “we” need to FIX IT. USEF and USHJA seem to be leading the way, but until the culture has changed and it’s no longer acceptable (in the open or behind closed barn doors) to inject horses needlessly or shove substances down their throats to make them more rideable instead of training them and their riders, then the issue is not fixed. Yes, this sport absolutely has some lovely things to offer, but it has some big skeletons in the closet that have to be brought out and dealt with. Making excuses isn’t appropriate anymore.

Each discipline has its own issues. Eventing is going though a rash of injuries and deaths on XC that folks are trying to wrap their heads around, Dressage is fighting the “Yank 'n Spank”, blue tongues, Rollkur, etc. No discipline is perfect and there’s always a fault to point out and improve. Hunters are no different, and all these issues come down to humans making choices for the horses. So make the RIGHT choices. Control what you can control - how your horse is managed, what you do and do not choose to do with him/to him. If the management at the barn doesn’t comply with your morals, then leave and find one that does. Be responsible for yourself and your horse, and do right by the horse, always. Do that, and you don’t have to take offense to what’s being said on this thread, because YOU are doing your part.

With all that said… I can be pretty mean… Not scary :sigh: but doglike enough, if the position is available. :yes: :winkgrin:

Not necessarily something I’d be proud of. Being thoughtful and articulate, and standing up for one’s position with facts is one thing, being “mean” is not. Mean just contributes to the bickering, bashing, and lack of understanding between disciplines that you’re complaining about.

[Zuri]

Well said Gone Away. Change can be painfully slow, but it starts with one person at a time. If “cheating” is necessary for the end goalof winning, it is time to go back to basics. The “win at all costs” mentality just has to stop. JMV

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Threeplainbays;7685162]
Then the participants INSIDE the discipline need to CLEAN IT UP.

I decided to contact the Head Trainer. The vague answers I received to straightforward questions were asinine.

It was quite clear that they were less interested in truthful dialogue and more interested in retaining an owner that expected to pay upwards of $80,000 over the next several months.

A fool and his money are soon parted, but my checkbook is closed.[/QUOTE]

Good for you, TPB–best of luck in your future endeavors!

[OverandOnward]

I will mention that during my time in hunter-jumpers, mostly hunter showing, I met some of the best people involved in horses. People who are good, caring and honest, and who put their horses before themselves. It was because of them that I developed a lifelong love of competitive horse sport, not just horses.

Just to be fair about the general view of people involved with traditional hunter showing.

The drug/substance thing to manipulate horse behavior and/or soundness seems to cross those lines and invade the mentality of people who should know better (imo). Sometimes, anyway, certainly not everyone.

[Lix_Tetrax]

It’s been a long week so I’m only gonna respond to one thing.

Well, wait. Two things. Good for you OP! Drugging SHOULD NOT be tolerated. Honestly, I’d have left too.

Second, it seems some above posters think I am making excuses for hunters drugging or the like. I’m sorry if it came across that way. My writing leaves much to be desired. I am in no way, shape, or form supportive of the drugging that goes on. I refuse to ride with trainers who drug, I don’t often socialize with other riders who think it’s okay (only be polite), and I would rather stop showing and go have fun with my horse on trails, or versatility courses (I’m actually afraid to jump, so fox hunting is out).

Yes, hunters has some big skeletons. Yes, so do many, if not all, disciplines. I don’t disagree with this. Change is slow and sometimes painful. What’s the quote? “Change is not made without inconvenience, even from worse to better.” The only ones who can really change the hunter discipline are those in it. I think, slowly, we are.

Darn. Three things. GoneAway, I hope you realize my last paragraph in what you quoted was a joke. That’s why I used the emoticons I did. I wasn’t at all being serious about that. Yes, I can be rude, but it is a work in progress, and not something I am proud of.

Signing off. Don’t know if I got my point across, so gonna stop before I potentially dig myself deeper.

Again, OP, good for you. Honestly and sincerely.

[GaMare]

@supershorty628;7682861

if I can make her more comfortable within the rules, I will. Sorry, that’s not wrong to me.

Yeah supershorty! I’ve had great show days where I was in serious need of naproxen by the time I’d stiffened up on the drive home. I wouldn’t deny my horse care that I give to myself.

Legal medication has a legitimate role to play in a horseman’s tool kit. It’s important to differentiate between medication as a part of care versus as a substitute for training.

[Carol_Ames]

my first pro job was a barn or fields; of full of ponies ’ and childrens’ hunters; we used NO Drugs but, at shows in the area esestchester/ Fair field ; the two rimes I have seen drugs used in a therapeutically sound way; We used NONE1 BUT, at the local/. Weschester/ F airfield/ circuit; they were rampant; , trainers running to the parking, lot and their vans to “prepare” their norses/ ponies for their riders:confused:; I thought it Rather unusual and expected to see the schooling ring full of adults on ponies:lol: later, I learned that the preparation was done with a :eek:needle:mad:

[Carol_Ames]

IS THERE any evidence :(at all THAT THE HORSE, Mandiba IS BEING DOPED TO KEEP HIM GOING? If so, which I doubt:no:; it has not worked, has it?:no:

[Carol_Ames]

AMAZING, and it is definitely NOT GRACE:( Somehow, we have moved from Mandibas’ performance at the last observation trial to drugs in the hunter ring; and the statement, most probably not true:no: that Mandiba is on drugs to kreep him/ her going:no:

[supershorty628]

No one said that Mandiba is on drugs…?

[GoneAway]

[QUOTE=Carol Ames;7695096]
AMAZING, and it is definitely NOT GRACE:( Somehow, we have moved from Mandibas’ performance at the last observation trial to drugs in the hunter ring; and the statement, most probably not true:no: that Mandiba is on drugs to kreep him/ her going:no:[/QUOTE]
No one ever said Mandiba was on drugs. They implied he was being pushed beyond his limits/comfort zone much like some of the eventers on the thread said show hunters/jumpers were being pushed past their limits if they’re being given drugs to keep them going. Here’s how the Mandiba thing worked:

[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7683844]
FWIW, my 14 yo 17.2 hand creakster of a TJ gets injectable banamine and robaxin each night before showing as a part of his routine when on the road. He literally stands head to tail bone against the wall in a 10x10 stall, and he’s sore and stiff from it when he comes out in the morning. At home when he’s in his 14x14 stall and on all night turn out it’s a non issue. We ask a lot of our equine athletes, they weren’t meant to jump sticks for fun.[/QUOTE]

@asterix;7684751

Right. Makes sense. When my horse can’t jump sticks for fun without preventative drugs, he doesn’t jump sticks for fun any more. I wouldn’t put him in a box where he stands “head to tail bone against the wall” all night on a routine basis, either.

[QUOTE=vxf111;7684911]Maybe someone should tell the O’Connors that Mandiba doesn’t want to jump sticks anymore

Horses get pushed longer than the probably would themselves go/should go in all sorts of disciplines, for all sorts of reasons.[/QUOTE]

[AlexS]

Having just read most of this, I am not sure what we are really arguing about.

There is a massive difference between giving meds for health, and drugging for performance/calming etc. But the conversation has twisted so much that people are feeling the need to defend giving meds for health.

We all know that drugging is becoming more and more common in all disciplines. And I think most of us would agree it’s a real shame that this is the norm for some kids growing up in equestrianism as a whole. Heck there are lesson barns that give Ace for trail rides, most of us have heard of it, even if we have not experienced it. Thankfully I have only read about that on internet boards, but I believe it.

We all have our own lines in the sand about what is ok, and what isn’t. For me personally, I wouldn’t bute before a show. I think I would choose to retire at that point. But then even that gets blurry, if I was at some top level show, that we’d worked years to get to, then I might consider buting on the third day, as a once in a very rare deal thing.

I think when you get to the point where you are giving meds to calm the horse or for some other performance benefit, then most of us would say that’s wrong. The rest is a case by case basis, in my opinion.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=AlexS;7695675]

We all know that drugging is becoming more and more common in all disciplines. [/QUOTE]

Which disciplines ?