Just saw this ad for Aloha on WBs for Sale - touting new owner

[Zlotych]

[QUOTE=horsi_2003@hotmail.com;7262667]
LOL there really is no pleasing any of you ignorant people. Have your opinions. This horse will continue to produce quality that will speak for itself.[/QUOTE]

Ahh, name calling always adds a tremendous amount of clout to an argument, excellent decision. :rolleyes:
If you are all ‘Ooooh Shiney!’ and happy breeding to a small, mediocre stallion, with an obscure pedigree- (selected by Jill Burnell only because he was black with chrome), that has done nothing to speak of himself, with a baby or two that looked pretty in a line class, go for it.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=horsi_2003@hotmail.com;7262651]
Aloha’s Offspring have proven to be quite exceptional – In 2012 he was 3rd over all in the USEF Hunter Breeding Stallion ranks. In 2013 he is currently sitting at 7th over all – the points are based on the performance of his offspring. I think that says a lot.[/QUOTE]

1. There is little in the way of “performance” involved in hunter breeding classes. It’s a line class - horses have to stand quietly, look pretty and jog a few steps.

2. Aloha’s 2012 ranking was based on the results of a big whopping TWO offspring - one of which is no longer listed with USEF as being sired by Aloha. Aloha’s current 2013 ranking is also based on the results of TWO offspring.

When he shows up in the top sire rankings for HUNTERS (not hunter breeding), I might start thinking of him as an “exceptional sire” of performance horses. Until then, I consider him as someone else described him - small with a nondescript pedigree, possessing limited talent, and lacking in work ethic. And if I was determined to use a “black, blingy” stallion to produce a hunter type foal, there are plenty of others with better pedigrees, much greater talent, and a much better work ethic.

[Angelico]

Funny, many breeders on here proudly tout their less-than-stellar stallions, yet everyone seems okay with that. Here is a young stallion who, like it or not, IS ranked above most of (collective) your stallions, who is not even being touted or advertised, but since some of you have a beef with the former owner, he is suddenly a terrible horse. I’m not supporting JB, the stallion, his new owners, or anyone, nor am I trying to down anyone else on here, but take a look folks. You look like a bunch of sour grapes.

It isn’t too early for eggnog, I suggest you all pass it around.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=horsi_2003@hotmail.com;7262670]
YA. In a herd… AS THEY GREW UP. You can’t expect the same behavior from stallions that were not raised that way. Also having no mares in the mix obviously makes a big difference as well since there is no competition. Your example is pointless.[/QUOTE]

Who is expecting that stallions should behave the same way ? I included the SRS story to illustrate that in some situations they can get along quite well.

Re-read what I wrote: “Stallions fighting if in close proximity: this is not always the case.”

…NOT ALWAYS THE CASE…

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Mardi;7262666]

2. Stallions fighting if in close proximity: this is not always the case. Years ago at the SRS in Vienna a fire broke out in the Hofburg (part of the complex where the stallions live). The stallions were evacuated outside to a municipal park in the heart of Vienna. They were loose, and stayed as a herd, as that was how they had grown up, lived and worked. No mares, no fights. The only casualty were some prized roses in the park that a few stallions ate.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! I assume JB had mares on her place, since it was a breeding operation. As I’ve said over and over and OVER again, if stallions are going to get into it, the root cause is generally about mares.

No mares, no problems (usually).

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Angelico;7262883]
Funny, many breeders on here proudly tout their less-than-stellar stallions, yet everyone seems okay with that. Here is a young stallion who, like it or not, IS ranked above most of (collective) your stallions, who is not even being touted or advertised, but since some of you have a beef with the former owner, he is suddenly a terrible horse. I’m not supporting JB, the stallion, his new owners, or anyone, nor am I trying to down anyone else on here, but take a look folks. You look like a bunch of sour grapes.

It isn’t too early for eggnog, I suggest you all pass it around.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t say everyone is ok with anyone touting less then stellar anything around here. I think the critics are shared and shared alike no matter who’s horse it is.

[horsi_2003]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7262921]
I wouldn’t say everyone is ok with anyone touting less then stellar anything around here. I think the critics are shared and shared alike no matter who’s horse it is.[/QUOTE]

Is the issue truly with Aloha?? Or with his previous Owner??? If you have not met the stallion or his offspring then you have absolutely no right to comment on temperament, athletic ability, performance of offspring etc. As for the comment on the In Hand shows you are basically saying the judge just looks at how pretty the horse stands? Sure I believe it has a lot to do with the handler. But what about Confirmation? Hunter Suitability? Does the judge not score a horse based on those aspects as well?

AND as for Aloha’s performance Career - Is it not true that Jill Burnell had no money? …. Obviously she could not afford to have Aloha or Redwine for that matter continue their performance career. I saw Aloha go under saddle while in Ontario and although he was out of shape he was quite happy and willing to be worked under saddle.

It makes me sad to see where the breeding industry is heading ……Are you people actually implying that if the horse is the best of the best in the performance ring that his offspring will be incredible as well!? Like I said before Breeding is Crapshoot! But if you are basing your breeding decisions based on performance of the stallion and you don’t even take into consideration the offspring then good luck to you. The majority of the stallions who are at the top of the charts in their discipline are freaks of Nature. Most were NOT accepted into stud books based on SIZE or performance tests until after they made a mark for themselves as Performance horses. Just because a Stallion is a gold medalist at the Olympics DOES NOT mean his babies are going to be! Look at Hickstead …. Nothing special to look at…. Bloodlines are not by any means Magnificent …. But heck the horse with his “tiny Stature” won a gold medal in show jumping.

The stallion Voltaire was given the lowest scores during his performance test and ranked 14th out of 14 stallions. He was of smaller stature and was rejected by the Oldenburg verband and the KWPN. You can not tell me now that that stallion should have been gelded based on the mere fact that he didn’t thrill the judges at the time of his inspection. Once his foals started hitting the ground everyone wanted to breed to him…… sooooo in the big scheme of things what does that really say for Stallion testing/Inspection or Performance? I think we should base a Stallions success on the foals he produces not by his own personal successes or lack thereof. If you were born into a family where both parents are Doctors do you really think that you are genetically superior and will be an even greater doctor!?

I am not saying Aloha is going to be an elite breeding stallion like Voltaire but I am saying you never know what the future holds for this guy and his foal crops to come.

[Blume_Farm]

First, I know nothing about Hunter breeding and Aloha specifically. My comment is more in relation to the statements below and horse breeding in general. You can always find the “one that bucked the trend”…ie; the stallion that was not an immediate success, failed performance testing, etc. However, these are the exception to the rule. For example, you can always find a person that was raised in the innercity, dead beat parents, but somehow made it to college and now is the CEO of a successful company. No one would argue that a stable home life, good education, etc is not beneficial to being a successful adult.

The reason WB breeding in Europe has been so successful is that they rely on structured “weeding out” steps from inspection to performance testing. They accept the process and the WB sport horse population as a whole has benefited because of it.

[QUOTE=horsi_2003@hotmail.com;7262926]
Is the issue truly with Aloha?? Or with his previous Owner??? If you have not met the stallion or his offspring then you have absolutely no right to comment on temperament, athletic ability, performance of offspring etc. As for the comment on the In Hand shows you are basically saying the judge just looks at how pretty the horse stands? Sure I believe it has a lot to do with the handler. But what about Confirmation? Hunter Suitability? Does the judge not score a horse based on those aspects as well?

AND as for Aloha’s performance Career - Is it not true that Jill Burnell had no money? …. Obviously she could not afford to have Aloha or Redwine for that matter continue their performance career. I saw Aloha go under saddle while in Ontario and although he was out of shape he was quite happy and willing to be worked under saddle.

It makes me sad to see where the breeding industry is heading ……Are you people actually implying that if the horse is the best of the best in the performance ring that his offspring will be incredible as well!? Like I said before Breeding is Crapshoot! But if you are basing your breeding decisions based on performance of the stallion and you don’t even take into consideration the offspring then good luck to you. The majority of the stallions who are at the top of the charts in their discipline are freaks of Nature. Most were NOT accepted into stud books based on SIZE or performance tests until after they made a mark for themselves as Performance horses. Just because a Stallion is a gold medalist at the Olympics DOES NOT mean his babies are going to be! Look at Hickstead …. Nothing special to look at…. Bloodlines are not by any means Magnificent …. But heck the horse with his “tiny Stature” won a gold medal in show jumping.

The stallion Voltaire was given the lowest scores during his performance test and ranked 14th out of 14 stallions. He was of smaller stature and was rejected by the Oldenburg verband and the KWPN. You can not tell me now that that stallion should have been gelded based on the mere fact that he didn’t thrill the judges at the time of his inspection. Once his foals started hitting the ground everyone wanted to breed to him…… sooooo in the big scheme of things what does that really say for Stallion testing/Inspection or Performance? I think we should base a Stallions success on the foals he produces not by his own personal successes or lack thereof. If you were born into a family where both parents are Doctors do you really think that you are genetically superior and will be an even greater doctor!?

I am not saying Aloha is going to be an elite breeding stallion like Voltaire but I am saying you never know what the future holds for this guy and his foal crops to come.[/QUOTE]

[CDE_Driver]

I always thought Aloha would look really cute in harness

[stoicfish]

It makes me sad to see where the breeding industry is heading ……Are you people actually implying that if the horse is the best of the best in the performance ring that his offspring will be incredible as well!? Like I said before Breeding is Crapshoot! But if you are basing your breeding decisions based on performance of the stallion and you don’t even take into consideration the offspring then good luck to you. The majority of the stallions who are at the top of the charts in their discipline are freaks of Nature. Most were NOT accepted into stud books based on SIZE or performance tests until after they made a mark for themselves as Performance horses. Just because a Stallion is a gold medalist at the Olympics DOES NOT mean his babies are going to be! Look at Hickstead …. Nothing special to look at…. Bloodlines are not by any means Magnificent …. But heck the horse with his “tiny Stature” won a gold medal in show jumping.

I have no issue with this stallion in question. But some of those statements…

Firstly, I agree with lower correlation between licencing/testing and offspring ability then is hoped for BUT Voltaire was outrageously talented in competition. He did show his ability. Breeding is not a crap shot, and the future of breeding will really be in trouble if that philosophy is embraced. It is genetics and there are random aspects but breeding horses with talent, that came from talent really increases the desired outcome.

Citing halter classes is not really going to earn respect on a Sport horse forum. It does not mean Aloha cannot produce top hunters but it also doesn’t mean he can. Top level hunter stallions are not Top Breeding Class Champs, obviously. So that may say more for the Breeding classes than anything else.

People here are entitled to their opinions, including you. But since Aloha hasn’t proven himself in sport or has offspring that are successful to any degree in the sport beyond halter classes, you also are making assumptions as to his success as a sire. Which is fine but to attack people that have a different opinion of a subject that has not been proven one way or another is not fair or going to win anyone over. In fact it sounds much like many hunter stallion owners that have pretty horses that are only good for producing pretty horses. But they like to tout their stallions as the next best thing.

And if any stallion owner or fan came on here touting a stallion, they better back it up with results in print. Everyone that comes on here is subject to that treatment and rightly so. You are obviously vested in this stallion for one reason or another.
Don’t assume the rest of us care one way or another more than any other stallion and… come back in 3 years when this horse has older offspring and/or has competed himself and you have proof of his ability.

There is so much hype and politics around Hunters that it is hard for people to separate pretty from a good athlete. At the top of the sport you do tend to see the actual talent show up and it looks a lot like excellent jumper breeding. https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/pointsAwards/points/leadingSiresM.aspx?year=2012&section=2000&viewCat=Hunter
So besides the “crap shoot” argument, many campaigned “hunter breeding” stallions are not going to show up on the Top list because they lack the genetics to create horses with jumping ability. It is highly hereditary and you are insult everyone else that is respecting that proven method because they are endangering the breeding industry? Really?
So the better advice is to pick a unproven stallion, with a average pedigree that throws pretty, correct foals for a jumping sport. That would be better advice for the industry?

https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/pointsAwards/points/leadingSiresM.aspx?year=2012&section=1900&viewCat=HunterBreeding
The R-line throws nice foals. The dressage R-line is also a jump killer for anything above normal jumping ability.

[horsi_2003]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7263011]
I have no issue with this stallion in question. But some of those statements…

Firstly, I agree with lower correlation between licencing/testing and offspring ability then is hoped for BUT Voltaire was outrageously talented in competition. He did show his ability. Breeding is not a crap shot, and the future of breeding will really be in trouble if that philosophy is embraced. It is genetics and there are random aspects but breeding horses with talent, that came from talent really increases the desired outcome.

Citing halter classes is not really going to earn respect on a Sport horse forum. It does not mean Aloha cannot produce top hunters but it also doesn’t mean he can. Top level hunter stallions are not Top Breeding Class Champs, obviously. So that may say more for the Breeding classes than anything else.

People here are entitled to their opinions, including you. But since Aloha hasn’t proven himself in sport or has offspring that are successful to any degree in the sport beyond halter classes, you also are making assumptions as to his success as a sire. Which is fine but to attack people that have a different opinion of a subject that has not been proven one way or another is not fair or going to win anyone over. In fact it sounds much like many hunter stallion owners that have pretty horses that are only good for producing pretty horses. But they like to tout their stallions as the next best thing.

And if any stallion owner or fan came on here touting a stallion, they better back it up with results in print. Everyone that comes on here is subject to that treatment and rightly so. You are obviously vested in this stallion for one reason or another.
Don’t assume the rest of us care one way or another more than any other stallion and… come back in 3 years when this horse has older offspring and/or has competed himself and you have proof of his ability.

There is so much hype and politics around Hunters that it is hard for people to separate pretty from a good athlete. At the top of the sport you do tend to see the actual talent show up and it looks a lot like excellent jumper breeding. https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/pointsAwards/points/leadingSiresM.aspx?year=2012&section=2000&viewCat=Hunter
So besides the “crap shoot” argument, many campaigned “hunter breeding” stallions are not going to show up on the Top list because they lack the genetics to create horses with jumping ability. It is highly hereditary and you are insult everyone else that is respecting that proven method because they are endangering the breeding industry? Really?
So the better advice is to pick a unproven stallion, with a average pedigree that throws pretty, correct foals for a jumping sport. That would be better advice for the industry?[/QUOTE]

I am not attacking others, it is the other way around. I am voicing my opinion like everyone else seems to be. So as far as breeding two “talented” horses to get a “talented” foal… I personally don’t think that is the way to breed. Why don’t you look at your mares confirmation, the stallions confirmation. See if a hybrid of their qualities will give you the type of foal you want. I couldn’t care less about some names on a piece of paper, because to be honest it means nothing. He is a young stallion and obviously his foals are not at the age to prove themselves as you would like. As far as showing is concerned, it is not the end all of owning a horse. Why is the goal only to get a ribbon? Why wouldn’t you want to breed a horse that will be built for the job you want him to do and because he is built so, will stay sound for you? Why wouldn’t you want a horse that is quiet and trainable? Lets be honest. Of all the people that show their horses, how many make a profit. The majority…(very LARGE majority) do it because we enjoy learning and experiencing these things with our equine partners. I am speaking now as someone that is expecting an Aloha foal. I am expecting a horse of quality. That quality has nothing to do with show results.

[Lynnwood]

Horsi can I ask and perhaps its to personal but in your opinion/words. Why did you breed to Aloha , what were you looking to produce and what are your goals for that breeding’s resulting foal?

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=horsi_2003@hotmail.com;7263036]
I am not attacking others, it is the other way around. I am voicing my opinion like everyone else seems to be. So as far as breeding two “talented” horses to get a “talented” foal… I personally don’t think that is the way to breed. Why don’t you look at your mares confirmation, the stallions confirmation. See if a hybrid of their qualities will give you the type of foal you want. I couldn’t care less about some names on a piece of paper, because to be honest it means nothing. He is a young stallion and obviously his foals are not at the age to prove themselves as you would like. As far as showing is concerned, it is not the end all of owning a horse. Why is the goal only to get a ribbon? Why wouldn’t you want to breed a horse that will be built for the job you want him to do and because he is built so, will stay sound for you? Why wouldn’t you want a horse that is quiet and trainable? Lets be honest. Of all the people that show their horses, how many make a profit. The majority…(very LARGE majority) do it because we enjoy learning and experiencing these things with our equine partners. I am speaking now as someone that is expecting an Aloha foal. I am expecting a horse of quality. That quality has nothing to do with show results.[/QUOTE]

Really? You just threw out the philosophy behind every horse bred for sport including racing, cutting, endurance. Top horses are bred from top horses and top pedigrees - in every sport. That is how genetics works.
You want to make halter horses that look good? Go for it but don’t kid yourself about how sport horses are created.
And “looking” at a horse is only his phenotype. Because Eric picked Hickstead cause of his appearance? Nope, his talent and yes Hickstead did have a really good pedigree, but he even exceeded it. The question is will he be able to pass that on. Not all talented horses can pass it on but all top sires are talented themselves. Look at the list and show me a stallion that doesn’t show outrageous talent.
Seriously, you have a lot to learn about breeding if you think you don’t need use pedigrees and ability and instead use “good looks” and “wonder what those two would produce”. I don’t think you are doing Aloha or his owners any favors by championing him with these arguments. Pretty is as pretty does.

[Laurierace]

Breeding the best to the best is the only way to breed in my opinion. For the love of grammar unless your horse is devout Catholic it is confOrmation.

[horsi_2003]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7263039]
Horsi can I ask and perhaps its to personal but in your opinion/words. Why did you breed to Aloha , what were you looking to produce and what are your goals for that breeding’s resulting foal?[/QUOTE]

Not a problem, I don’t mind at all. I have had my mare for many years, I have known her since she was 2 years old. She is a wonderful horse, quiet, trainable, sound. She has solid bone, perfect legs and feet (which are the first things I look at), and the body type I like. Where she lacks is in her hip and she also has a very rounded wither. The first stallion I bred her to had the same body type and solid bone that I like, however he had a much nicer hip. I had met him and he was quiet and polite. I had also met some of his foals. My colt that I have from that match now, has perfect legs, very easy going and a beautiful hip (It is what everyone always comments on first). Since I’m not going to the Olympics any time soon, this colt will really be able to do anything I want - However I would say given his movement, build and stride he is suited more towards dressage. When I met Aloha I saw first that he has great feet and wonderful legs. I liked where is neck tied into his shoulders (as my mare has very low carriage, she is much heavier on the forehand). Aloha, like the first stallion I bred my mare to, has a great hip. He is compact and has the body type I like. All in all, where my mare lacks, he will make up the difference. I’m looking for a horse with beautiful confirmation, built to do the job. That is why I bred to Aloha.

[horsi_2003]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7263049]
Really? You just threw out the philosophy behind every horse bred for sport including racing, cutting, endurance. Top horses are bred from top horses and top pedigrees - in every sport. That is how genetics works.
You want to make halter horses that look good? Go for it but don’t kid yourself about how sport horses are created.
And “looking” at a horse is only his phenotype. Because Eric picked Hickstead cause of his appearance? Nope, his talent and yes Hickstead did have a really good pedigree, but he even exceeded it. The question is will he be able to pass that on. Not all talented horses can pass it on but all top sires are talented themselves. Look at the list and show me a stallion that doesn’t show outrageous talent.
Seriously, you have a lot to learn about breeding if you think you don’t need use pedigrees and ability and instead use “good looks” and “wonder what those two would produce”. I don’t think you are doing Aloha or his owners any favors by championing him with these arguments. Pretty is as pretty does.[/QUOTE]

I never said NOT to breed “the best to the best” Im saying there are more factors to look at and breeding that way does not guarantee an amazing foal from the mix. Chill. Out.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=horsi_2003@hotmail.com;7263036]
I am not attacking others, it is the other way around. I am voicing my opinion like everyone else seems to be. So as far as breeding two “talented” horses to get a “talented” foal… I personally don’t think that is the way to breed. Why don’t you look at your mares confirmation, the stallions confirmation. See if a hybrid of their qualities will give you the type of foal you want. I couldn’t care less about some names on a piece of paper, because to be honest it means nothing. He is a young stallion and obviously his foals are not at the age to prove themselves as you would like. As far as showing is concerned, it is not the end all of owning a horse. Why is the goal only to get a ribbon? Why wouldn’t you want to breed a horse that will be built for the job you want him to do and because he is built so, will stay sound for you? Why wouldn’t you want a horse that is quiet and trainable? Lets be honest. Of all the people that show their horses, how many make a profit. The majority…(very LARGE majority) do it because we enjoy learning and experiencing these things with our equine partners. I am speaking now as someone that is expecting an Aloha foal. I am expecting a horse of quality. That quality has nothing to do with show results.[/QUOTE]

ConFORmation. You confirm your reservations. The way a horse is constructed is their conFORmation.

Sorry – a pet peeve is supposed horse people who don’t know the difference.

This and saying a foal is “out of” a stallion. Learn the basic vocabulary…

[Laurierace]

I would be willing to bet 100 million dollars that you will not get a horse with good confirmation. Can you confirm your horse is well conformed?

[horsi_2003]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7263097]
ConFORmation. You confirm your reservations. The way a horse is constructed is their conFORmation.

Sorry – a pet peeve is supposed horse people who don’t know the difference.

This and saying a foal is “out of” a stallion. Learn the basic vocabulary…[/QUOTE]

lol, I’m going to keep doing it since it gets a rise out of you people so much. Anyone else want to talk about confirmation? Anyone? Anyone?

[horsi_2003]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;7263099]
I would be willing to bet 100 million dollars that you will not get a horse with good confirmation. Can you confirm your horse is well conformed?[/QUOTE]

Yes actually I can.