I think there were a lot of other more constructive things the “judge” could have said in response to this ride. Other than the obvious issue with the “judge” recommending a chemical solution to the issues without even barely touching on the riding/training topics, what really made me cringe was this: “Is this what judges really think?” When a horse that comes into the ring and has just a little too much natural energy/enthusiasm, are they sitting there thinking, “Well, that horse just needs more chemical prep”? I agree that the horse in question didn’t present himself as well as he could in the future with additional training and experience, but have things gotten so far out of hand that even the judges are looking for the “prepped” horse?
[QUOTE=RugBug;7646763]
Well, that is certainly one option. You can also try to do it the right way. It may mean you aren’t as successful, but it doesn’t mean there aren’t still goals to reach.[/QUOTE]
I’m not willing to beat my head against the wall at every show just because this is the common response from judges. You are in my area and this attitude disgusts me. I won’t bother anymore in the hunter ring, Mr. Stolen calls it “ice skating judging” only when one of the prominent judges states that he expects horses are given “better performance through chemistry” then I am done. It is an industry that deserves to die. I am done with it !
You gotta love COTH. There’s one thread bemoaning the pervasive lack of interest in horsemanship today (everyone just wants to show up at the horse show and compete rather than learn to RIDE. Lather, rinse, repeat).
And right underneath that one we’ve got a thread where many are advising a girl who is jumping higher than 3’ at their second show (you know, like those good old OLD DAYS that everyone misses so much, back when everyone was a true horseman) a bit imperfectly, to get off the poor horse and let her trainer take over. Because BY GOD SHE’S GOING TO RUIN THAT WONDERFUL HORSE IF SHE DOESN’T GET OFF RIGHT NOW!
I’m with those who don’t see where the horse looks like anyone should be suggesting chemical intervention (or for the kid to take up tennis until the horse has been trained by a pro). Time and hard work in lessons with a good trainer should get the job done.
[QUOTE=BeeHoney;7646764]
I think there were a lot of other more constructive things the “judge” could have said in response to this ride. Other than the obvious issue with the “judge” recommending a chemical solution to the issues without even barely touching on the riding/training topics, what really made me cringe was this: “Is this what judges really think?” When a horse that comes into the ring and has just a little too much natural energy/enthusiasm, are they sitting there thinking, “Well, that horse just needs more chemical prep”? I agree that the horse in question didn’t present himself as well as he could in the future with additional training and experience, but have things gotten so far out of hand that even the judges are looking for the “prepped” horse?[/QUOTE]
After watching the video again, I thought you know that horse was really being a good boy for how much he is facing at the tender age of 6. With more mileage, I think he is going to be really nice.
Nice horse. With some appropriate flatwork and additional experience he will be even nicer. I don’t see anything that would make me reach for a calming agent. Or for Red Cell.
I, too, have been told that “everyone” uses PerfectPrep in the hunters and eq. It somehow seems wrong for a judge/trainer to recommend something that alters the behavior of a horse in a venue such as JudgeMyRide. Can’t say I’m shocked though.
I dont really care if this junior rider and her trainer decide to use Perfect Prep. It is true that it is widely used. But, I see NOTHING on that video that screams “this horse needs to be calmed down.” And it doesn’t seem like the rider was looking for that kind of advice! I think Mr. Gage took the lazy way out but suggesting PP. Guess it was too much work to actually watch the video and come up with a couple useful bits of advice.
And how in the world did Mr. Gage even know the horse wasn’t ALREADY on PP - LOL
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;7646747]
He’s certainly a little strong and the course was a bit rough in spots but she got him around to a series of perfectly acceptable distances. She’s not doing this horse any lasting harm. I think it is great her trainer is actually having her get out there and learn how to ride her own green horse rather than doing it for her and only letting her on it when it’s done. She’s perfectly capable and appears to be learning decent horsemanship at home, if not on the Internet. Is she a perfect rider? Of course not, but she’s getting the job done on a young strong horse and can smooth out the edges with time. Lovely horse.[/QUOTE]
I agree, I think it’s a nice pair with a good future. They just need to keep at it, get more experience, more fitness, more development.
Rob works with me and my horses on a regular basis, and he has never suggested any “chemical prep.” I don’t know why he suggested it this time, but I do know it is not his regular MO. I would think out of the thousands of posts he has responded to on Judge My Ride, to pick out the one that he has ever suggested perfect prep on and attack him, the hunter industry, and all judges based on that is, perhaps, a little unfair. We all have said things we wished we hadn’t.
That being said, perfect prep is very commonly used. If people are going to use something they think gives them an advantage (and there are always people who are going to do this), I would much rather see them use a relatively innocuous over-the-counter nutraceutical (which may or may not really have any effect) than dexamethasone, LTD, or dropping them off the end of a needle (magnesium or calcium).
Judging will not change as long as judges have to answer to show managers. Show managers hire the judges and want to keep the BNT’s who bring the most clients to their shows happy. If the BNT’s complain about the judges, they do not get hired, so most judges are not going to go out on a limb and reward something completely different than everyone else.
When the USEF appoints judges to shows, judging may change. That will not happen until the USEF is not run by show managers.
I can’t comment about RG’s reliance on PP because I just don’t know. But I will say that I stopped reading JMR ages ago because much of his advice is downright bizarre. I saw a preponderance of recommendations that addressed neither too long stirrups, the praying mantis position or just general meh riding. Carol and some of the other judges seemed much more helpful. RG just made me roll my eyes and ultimately, remove them from my FB feed.
Totally agree with this.
Also agree with everyone else that the judge’s recommendation to use PP is appalling.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;7646747]
He’s certainly a little strong and the course was a bit rough in spots but she got him around to a series of perfectly acceptable distances. She’s not doing this horse any lasting harm. I think it is great her trainer is actually having her get out there and learn how to ride her own green horse rather than doing it for her and only letting her on it when it’s done. She’s perfectly capable and appears to be learning decent horsemanship at home, if not on the Internet. Is she a perfect rider? Of course not, but she’s getting the job done on a young strong horse and can smooth out the edges with time. Lovely horse.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree with this.
Also agree with everyone else that the judge’s recommendation to use PP is appalling.
[QUOTE=rosebecard;7646825]
Rob works with me and my horses on a regular basis, and he has never suggested any “chemical prep.” I don’t know why he suggested it this time, but I do know it is not his regular MO. I would think out of the thousands of posts he has responded to on Judge My Ride, to pick out the one that he has ever suggested perfect prep on and attack him, the hunter industry, and all judges based on that is, perhaps, a little unfair. We all have said things we wished we hadn’t.
That being said, perfect prep is very commonly used. If people are going to use something they think gives them an advantage (and there are always people who are going to do this), I would much rather see them use a relatively innocuous over-the-counter nutraceutical (which may or may not really have any effect) than dexamethasone, LTD, or dropping them off the end of a needle (magnesium or calcium).
Judging will not change as long as judges have to answer to show managers. Show managers hire the judges and want to keep the BNT’s who bring the most clients to their shows happy. If the BNT’s complain about the judges, they do not get hired, so most judges are not going to go out on a limb and reward something completely different than everyone else.
When the USEF appoints judges to shows, judging may change. That will not happen until the USEF is not run by show managers.[/QUOTE]
THIS TIMES A BILLION! As a newly christened large R Hunter judge, I would like to get jobs. Going on a crusade to change the way hunters are judged certainly will not put me high on the hire list. That said, when I judge I always try to be fair, and have my decisions both explainable and defendable.
I wish my horse got “strong and pulled” like that one. Ours is usually much more head in the air, bid for fences type.
I gave up on JMR a lot time ago. It’s always the same thing “more release, your leg slipped, your laying on your horses neck”. It’s never anything helpful. Then you get teenagers that think they are judges to tell you something totally off the wall. The only thing I use JMR for is entertainment.
This really makes me angry, the more I think about it.
Here you have a kid on a green horse, trying to make a go of making him up herself (at least in part)… asking (paying?) an adult, professional for advice on how to IMPROVE HER RIDE and she’s told to use a calming supplement and lots of hardware. She’s asking for help and she’s being given shortcuts. By someone who either doesn’t know or care enough to actually watch the video and think (i.e. thinking the horse is in a pelham when he’s clearly not). It makes me truly disgusted and think very little of RG. Who apparently just likes throwing quick fixes at things, doesn’t read the rulebook, and might want to get new lenses in his glasses.
I didn’t see the horse getting strong in the sense of going too fast but strong, in leaning on her, which he alternated with coming a bit above the bit. He’s green and needs time and miles. He has a nice jump and when he manages his rhythm, he will be a very nice horse.
Every time I heard the trainer on the video say “whoa!” I wanted muzzle him and say “balance and leg, rhythm.” The girl can ride OK but she needs to learn some tricks to bringing along a nice young horse and I didn’t see anything there that made me thing PP was the solution.
I don’t know RG other than by reputation. Someone here who rides with him says he’s never suggested it to her but I do know that the trash bins at barns are full of PP tubes and sharps containers are shows are filled.
Nice horse, child needs to learn to ride.
Ride judger needs to get an education.
Since we’re on the subject of JMR … something I’ve wondered recently. I’ve seen a few comments/exchanges between submitters and the judge about “how nice it was to meet you, etc.” at events the judges were working. Isn’t talking to the judge a no no? Are there circumstances that it’s ok?
THIS TIMES A BILLION! As a newly christened large R Hunter judge, I would like to get jobs. Going on a crusade to change the way hunters are judged certainly will not put me high on the hire list. That said, when I judge I always try to be fair, and have my decisions both explainable and defendable.
Interesting conundrum- one argument I’ve seen on this board (and elsewhere) is that trainers bring ultra quiet “prepped” horses to the ring because that is what the judges will pin, judges say they have to pin that look in order to keep the show managers happy to ensure the trainers will come to their shows. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Hard to know what needs to change without understanding the root cause. I have a horse that can get enthusiastic about her job and be inconsistent at shows. I know in large part it is because I don’t show a lot, so she is “up” when we go. Lots of people have suggested Perfect Prep, Dex, so on and so on. I just say no thank you, but there certainly is pressure.
My experience tells me that a defensive ride on a greenie at shows is something you should avoid at all costs. This rider looks like she’s worried about misbehavior after the fence and is riding to avoid that…with someone on the ground coaching her to that same end as well. It’s not great for the horse’s education.
I don’t think she needs to completely stop riding the horse, but if it were mine, I would be letting it get really good show experiences until I could stop riding so defensively. It is a VERY nice horse and I would want to protect my investment. However, there are some people that have a different view and that is fine.
FWIW: I did a clinic with RG. It was fun. He had a lot of good information, great exercises and gave me some useful suggestions, none of which included using PP or anything like it.
[QUOTE=molly8it;7647129]
Since we’re on the subject of JMR … something I’ve wondered recently. I’ve seen a few comments/exchanges between submitters and the judge about “how nice it was to meet you, etc.” at events the judges were working. Isn’t talking to the judge a no no? Are there circumstances that it’s ok?[/QUOTE]
You are supposed to get a steward to intervene between a rider and a judge. If I had submitted a ride for critique and been happy with the results I might consider approaching a steward to speak with the judge if he had done the critique. I would only do so AFTER I had shown and would only do so to express my thanks.
Of course since the pros doing the critiques are also trainers, it’s possible that they met at shows where they were not judging.
That said, I think that riders who do so should be quiet about it on public boards as there is already enough of a perception that there is a very close, almost incestuous relationship between competitors and judges.
