Kelly Farmer Additional Suspension

[jen-s]

@AllOverFarm

When a horse tests positive for a drug… and the trainer is suspended. I think the HORSE also needs to be suspended from getting ANY points or money. The horse needs to be RED FLAGGED. Even if horse is sold or leased. Horse can still show… but NO points or money can be collected. Any money won needs to go to a ushja worthy cause or grant of some sort.
Once the trainers suspension is lifted… the horses red flag is lifted.
If trainer gets a 2 yr suspension… horse is red flagged for 2 years. Doesn’t matter if horse gets sold or leased… it’s red flagged till trainer has done his/her time.

I personally love this idea. BUT if you’re an owner of a high dollar business investment horse who suddenly loses the ability to show and sustain that value, what now? You can sell it…for a fraction of the value since it can’t be shown. Do you turn it into a pasture ornament for 2 years and then try to make a go of it again? Do you donate it to an IHSA program for a write off (if that’s even legal with a horse that’s been set down)? Do you let some other trainer use it as a schoolie (and put miles on it and risk injury)? Or is that horse going to have a freak pasture accident? Some people would happily fund their horse’s temporary vacation. Some wouldn’t.

But this is something to consider.

[Kottbulle]

@oldernewbie

Not that I think this is great, or is scientifically valid, or works, even, but it doesn’t sound horrible. Then I went and googled it and have to say - the comments on other discussions about it are ate up with dumb. SMH!

I don’t know sounds pretty terrible to me… if you want to push on a horses pressure point why not figure a way to do it with something on the inside of the brow band? driving a staple into a horses forehead sounds pretty uncomfortable to me… and i was pretty appalled that a vet was doing it?! the worst thing i ever had a vet suggest to calm my spirited jumper was a beer before our class… i asked him for me or the horse? he said both if necessary… ;p

[Dinah-do]

Horses coming off a lot of Dex need months to clear there system and get back in shape. When they crash they look pretty bad. but once dependent on the drug they function quite well.

[Thylacine]

@Sticky Situation

Ugh, I’m sick to death of these repeat offenders getting slap on the wrist after slap on the wrist and continuing to compete and do business nearly uninterrupted. I really wish that the USEF would/could give such people a permanent ban if they don’t clean up their act after the first couple offenses. I think it’s pathetic people who have repeatedly been caught drugging horses are allowed to continue to play. I realize that at least part of this is probably due to the risk of USEF being sued by (and likely losing to) deep pockets, but it would be nice if the legal system were to somehow stand up for animal welfare, fairness and clean sport.

blame USE whose rules and regs are basically set up for Amateur Sport when the people most likely to fall foul are either Pros or hanging on to their Amatuer Status by the skin of their teeth.

and when one considers that all these rules/regulations/guide lines are so often originally drawn up by former or still competing or family of, riders it’s not a huge surprise that there are cracks one could drive a luxury 10horse/accomodation for 4 adults semi trailer, throughout the organizations “rules”.

[Jackjoe1]

Where are people’s morals? I don’t care if I had the worlds best hunter, I would not let the horse be in a program like KF and LG. I don’t think owners can be that dumb can they?

[vineyridge]

@Jackjoe1

Where are people’s morals? I don’t care if I had the worlds best hunter, I would not let the horse be in a program like KF and LG. I don’t think owners can be that dumb can they?

They see that KF and LG have horses that win big classes. They want their horse to win big classes and increase in value. Many of them just don’t care as long as their horses win big classes and increase in value.

I would think that most of the horses that they ride are ultimately for sale.

[Dutchmare433]

@jen-s

I personally love this idea. BUT if you’re an owner of a high dollar business investment horse who suddenly loses the ability to show and sustain that value, what now? You can sell it…for a fraction of the value since it can’t be shown. Do you turn it into a pasture ornament for 2 years and then try to make a go of it again? Do you donate it to an IHSA program for a write off (if that’s even legal with a horse that’s been set down)? Do you let some other trainer use it as a schoolie (and put miles on it and risk injury)? Or is that horse going to have a freak pasture accident? Some people would happily fund their horse’s temporary vacation. Some wouldn’t.

But this is something to consider.

I imagine that people unscrupulous enough to consider some of this stuff would probably try to remove the horse’s microchip and sell it on to someone else who could re-chip it and show it as a different horse. Obviously the chip would make that harder, but I’m sure they’d find a work-around that didn’t involve a 6 figure loss.

Perhaps people would just not drug the horse in the first place if the penalty was harsh enough? I think many would, others would just try newer and worse ways to get around the rules.

[Blugal]

@jen-s

I personally love this idea. BUT if you’re an owner of a high dollar business investment horse who suddenly loses the ability to show and sustain that value, what now? You can sell it…for a fraction of the value since it can’t be shown. Do you turn it into a pasture ornament for 2 years and then try to make a go of it again? Do you donate it to an IHSA program for a write off (if that’s even legal with a horse that’s been set down)? Do you let some other trainer use it as a schoolie (and put miles on it and risk injury)? Or is that horse going to have a freak pasture accident? Some people would happily fund their horse’s temporary vacation. Some wouldn’t.

But this is something to consider.

Before you send the horse to another’s care, you have them sign a contract that they will not drug. And you insist that they be bonded for some or all of the horse’s value as security. Rich people insure.

There are ways to make this work. Some would rather it didn’t…

[Everlong274]

@Thylacine

also add, one big thing in farmer’s & glefke favour - they obviously pay really well if the grooms are affording then snorting enough coke to be ‘contaminating’ horses & their environs…

thats what I was thinking…also, I dont know many people who use cocaine that leave much residue on their fingers. And have we considered rider use? when will we start testing riders?

[MintHillFarm]

Concern for the horse is number one as we all agree. They have no voice in anything. Very sad…

As a rider, I would have NO desire to jump a horse that has been given a variety of drugs as mentioned throughout this thread. It is dangerous, and again risking the horse and ultimately the rider. It is just plain idiotic.

[scrbear11]

@APirateLooksAtForty

Eh gotta disagree with the Kelley riding criticisms. She’s rides great. Maybe not as mentally sharp as she was as a junior due to some lifestyle choices, but still rides super. The scuttlebutt at the AA shows is along the lines of, why DO they feel the need to drug so much since she rides so well and they have nice horses? She would win anyway, maybe just not as much and not on as wide an array of horses.

Not as mentally sharp due to lifestyle choices? Are you insinuating that perhaps Kelley had the “dirty hands”? Wouldn’t surprise me at all…

[rockonxox]

What I don’t quite understand is if prospective buyers KNOW they drug their horses, why buy? The horse is not (necessarily) going to be the same off the drugs so do KF and LG pass on the ingredients for their cocktails? Is it a risk that buyers take having the horse go through possible withdrawl or lowered performance by getting them off the drugs If the cocktail is bad enough (and for a long enough period of time) are there major health implications? I know that there are others out there drugging their horses, but the whole thing just seems crazy. I’m sure most of these horses are plenty talented and athletic and really don’t need the drugs, but for as much money as they go for I’d want to know for sure what they were like off them and I’d want them to have a long safe career.

[HorseAlter]

Someone asked earlier in this thread, why Kelly Farmer might do this if she was so talented as a junior rider.

Greed.

She was successful as a junior and had a natural eye. Perhaps she got away with not using drugs in the beginning, but then built up her business, gained a number of wealthy owners, and she needed that edge every time out.

The hunters are not very forgiving of minor mistakes. Even a bit of exuberance can knock you out of a top placing. If she wants to stay on top, all the time, with expensive horses and wealthy owners continuing to back her, she needs those results.

As to why people buy from her? Perhaps the buyers care more about results than they do about the drugging. Or they are to busy to follow up on that level of detail.

@rockonxox

What I don’t quite understand is if prospective buyers KNOW they drug their horses, why buy? The horse is not (necessarily) going to be the same off the drugs so do KF and LG pass on the ingredients for their cocktails? Is it a risk that buyers take having the horse go through possible withdrawl or lowered performance by getting them off the drugs If the cocktail is bad enough (and for a long enough period of time) are there major health implications? I know that there are others out there drugging their horses, but the whole thing just seems crazy. I’m sure most of these horses are plenty talented and athletic and really don’t need the drugs, but for as much money as they go for I’d want to know for sure what they were like off them and I’d want them to have a long safe career.

[LovesHorses]

I’d love to hear first hand from someone who has purchased a horse from Larry and Kelly. They must come with a list of the meds the horses show on? Otherwise what you get home would be entirely different and no one would purchase their product.

[Mara]

@HorseAlter

Someone asked earlier in this thread, why Kelly Farmer might do this if she was so talented as a junior rider.

Greed.

She was successful as a junior and had a natural eye. Perhaps she got away with not using drugs in the beginning, but then built up her business, gained a number of wealthy owners, and she needed that edge every time out.

The hunters are not very forgiving of minor mistakes. Even a bit of exuberance can knock you out of a top placing. If she wants to stay on top, all the time, with expensive horses and wealthy owners continuing to back her, she needs those results.

As to why people buy from her? Perhaps the buyers care more about results than they do about the drugging. Or they are to busy to follow up on that level of detail.

Kelley’s mom, Bibby Farmer Hill, was suspended for GABA use in a junior rider’s horse about 4 years ago. Sometimes the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree…

[rockonxox]

@HorseAlter

Someone asked earlier in this thread, why Kelly Farmer might do this if she was so talented as a junior rider.

Greed.

She was successful as a junior and had a natural eye. Perhaps she got away with not using drugs in the beginning, but then built up her business, gained a number of wealthy owners, and she needed that edge every time out.

The hunters are not very forgiving of minor mistakes. Even a bit of exuberance can knock you out of a top placing. If she wants to stay on top, all the time, with expensive horses and wealthy owners continuing to back her, she needs those results.

As to why people buy from her? Perhaps the buyers care more about results than they do about the drugging. Or they are to busy to follow up on that level of detail.

Not asking why she would do this. While I don’t agree with it, the why someone would do this isn’t hard to figure out. I’m wondering about the purchasing of horses who have gone through her program Surely to keep a business running it isn’t just “no-touch” owners involved who will keep the horse with LCF.

[DMK]

[edit]

That was my thought. It was the groom. For sure. Absolutely. My second thought was accidental contamination seems entirely plausible. Non accidental contamination also sounds plausible. If I was in Vegas I honestly wouldn’t know where to put my money…

[findeight]

@HorseAlter

Someone asked earlier in this thread, why Kelly Farmer might do this if she was so talented as a junior rider.

Greed.

She was successful as a junior and had a natural eye. Perhaps she got away with not using drugs in the beginning, but then built up her business, gained a number of wealthy owners, and she needed that edge every time out.

The hunters are not very forgiving of minor mistakes. Even a bit of exuberance can knock you out of a top placing. If she wants to stay on top, all the time, with expensive horses and wealthy owners continuing to back her, she needs those results.

As to why people buy from her? Perhaps the buyers care more about results than they do about the drugging. Or they are to busy to follow up on that level of detail.

Greed but…also…she long ago (in the 90s) hitched her wagon to the wrong star way back when he was still with Trudie and showed up still glued to his side when he resurfaced after a multi year absence ( prompted by a long suspension). It’s a traditional reason women can make decisions not in their best interests. She can ride an impressive Hunter round, even on less then stellar mounts. Or she used to be, she could make an overpriced Green, POS sale horse look sound and easy jumping around back in the day.

While I don’t know anybody who bought from them, or anybody that would, did know somebody who HAD to sell (for serious personal reasons) who sent a horse to a local trainer with orders to sell within 90 days who then sent it to them them circa early 2000s. There were some issues with how they marketed and billed for it. Came home in 90 days and was not the same horse they sent up there for some time resulting in some lawyer action. Realize this can happen to anybody but when you see that same movie with the same cast enough times? It creates a trust issue, or should. Apparently some never saw that movie.

[HorseAlter]

People that continue to place horses with her or who buy from her, knowing her pervious drug infractions, don’t care about the drugging. They care about results.

@rockonxox

Not asking why she would do this. While I don’t agree with it, the why someone would do this isn’t hard to figure out. I’m wondering about the purchasing of horses who have gone through her program Surely to keep a business running it isn’t just “no-touch” owners involved who will keep the horse with LCF.

[findeight]

It’s not her program, it’s his. He just doesn’t sign as Trainer any more.