Kicking the shoulder to teach leg yield?!

[Mander]

Hi all,

I guess I’m just looking for a sanity check and also somewhere to vent some frustrations.

I just moved to a new state at the start of the year and started riding with a new trainer. Pickings are slim out here, as hardly anyone rides english, and the people who do cater mostly to riders who already own their own horse (a club I am sadly not a part of) and as such don’t have any lesson horses available.

So this new trainer. I’ve ridden with her 4 times to date. The first two times she had me on one of her beginner horses. The first time, I understood - she had no idea what type of rider I’d be and was playing it safe and I would honestly not expect anything different. But the second time it was pretty apparent that she was just wanting me to school him for her because the little kids who usually ride him can’t get him to do much. I don’t really have a problem schooling horses like that, and I’ve had previous trainers have me do that with some of their more mischievous lesson horses too, but they always had me do it after my lesson and not as my lesson, as the focus is more on teaching the horse, not teaching me. But I let it slide and decided to give it a few more lessons.

The last two rides, I’ve been on a greener horse (not young, just green). Not crazy or particularly spooky or anything - a bit distracted at worst. She dislikes any contact and is extremely stiff to one side. I took note of it and throughout the ride tried to encourage some light contact and bending in that direction, rewarding for even the slightest effort. I didn’t feel like I personally made lots of progress or anything, but for the most part, that ride went uneventfully.

During the second ride on this mare though, a side of the trainer started to peek through that left me frustrated and really questioning her. She asked me to circle left (stiff direction) and then canter. Ok. Well before I knew it, this rapidly devolved into the trainer chasing us both around a egg/spiral shaped “circle” while the poor unbalanced mare picked up the wrong lead 4-5 times, all the while the trainer is screaming at me to yank her head up and pull it around to the inside (but since she’s stiff that way she’d end up just stopping and pivoting instead, leading to more screams from the trainer) and demanding that I canter “right NOW”, even though I could feel that she was going to pick up the wrong lead. At one point she even loudly kicked/knocked over a plastic cavaletti block behind us at one point to “encourage” the mare to move forward. Finally she had us just start trotting (which hardly went any better), and eventually break down to a walk to work on getting some bend, without falling to the inside. I thought that was a great idea, and honestly is what I wanted to do from the start… until she decided the right way to get the horse to bend to the left was to aggressively yank the inside rein, while holding the outside rein with my arm extended completely out to my side as far as I could (like literally straight out to the side) to keep her from falling in and then to top it off, to kick the horse in the shoulder “like a bronc rider” (her exact words) until she moved her shoulders over. And if kicking her in the shoulder didn’t get a good enough reaction, then to reach my leg back as far as I could and kick her way behind the girth (like where I would to ask a horse to move their haunches out, not their shoulder) and then back at the shoulder?!

I feel crazy - never in my life have I had someone tell me to literally kick a horse in the shoulder to “train” them to leg yield. A light tap of a crop? Sure. But “sling your leg up onto their shoulder like you want to tighten your girth and slam the side of the stirrup bar into them” is just not in my repertoire of good horsemanship. No thanks.

I’m just so defeated. Aside from her questionable training tactics and tendency to scream instead of explain, she’s just not a very nice person to be around, even off the horse. I was warned when this barn was recommended that the trainer can be very condescending and “my way or the highway”. I’d love to switch barns, but I don’t have nearly the budget I wish I had that would afford me a lease, and the only other trainer around here who has lesson horses is an hour away. In the past, my riding skill has been able to make up for my lack of $$$, catching rides on the horses other people didn’t have time to ride, but without any connections here, that’s not very realistic.

What would you do?

[EmilyM]

I don’t see any point in taking lessons from someone who doesn’t seem to know how to train horses. That’s a waste of money which you could save towards a lease perhaps. It’s worth it to drive farther away imho

[Pippigirl]

I’ve been in a situation like that before. It’s tough. Really tough. I ended up stopping with them. They were a well known person which made it feel worse for me. Rather than letting my temper get the best of me I stopped. In my limited experience I found that if you fight a horse long enough they either shut down or fight back. I missed riding horribly but I wanted to put the sanity of the horse first. In what limited way I could.

[hoopoe]

If you don’t have a horse of your own, quite frankly I would stop riding rather than team up with such a despicable person.

Or consider changing disciplines. Is there a close barn of a different discipline? There is something to be learned everywhere and it is better to ride with a quality horseperson is a new discipline than to waste your time participating in this persons practice

If not an option, I would stop riding and save your money for better days. I know that is hard to hear but you are going nowhere with this person and there is an ethical animal welfare issue in play

[Redlei44]

One terrible choice is no choice at all, unfortunately. If you can afford the time and commuting money, at least give the hour-away barn a chance. An hour drive to the barn is pretty common in a lot of parts of the county due to metro area traffic or lack of facilities - it’s not ideal but not unheard of by any means. If you’re taking one or two lessons a week, that’s a lot more doable than if you were a boarder needing to be there every day of the week.

Otherwise I concur with the above suggestion to try another discipline. Could be fun!

[lenapesadie]

@hoopoe

Or consider changing disciplines. Is there a close barn of a different discipline?

This would be my choice

[GraceLikeRain]

I’d pick up lessons in another discipline for a bit and post flyers at your local feed store advertising you are looking for a mutually beneficial opportunity for a dressage horse who has a rider short on time.

[anon510129]

I mean, an hour is really nothing in LA time (I lived and rode in LA traffic for 4 years of my life). Listen to some good podcasts and I hope you don’t live in a densely populated area.

I’d run as fast as I could to the hour away barn.

I feel so bad for that poor horse.

[jumpsnake]

I drive an hour to my barn, where my lease horse lives. It takes some getting used to but it’s worth it.
I also like the idea of trying out a different discipline.

[Pokerface]

Don’t give that woman your money. Poor horse is doomed to a life of misery as one of her horses.

Either drive the hour or give a new discipline a try!

[Jealoushe]

I actually have seen this used, when the horse would not move the shoulder over. From an Olympian, who I used to love to ride with, but just can’t bring myself to anymore.

[outside_leg]

If you can afford the gas to manage the longer drive (not to mention the time), I’d try the other barn. It can absolutely be a challenge to have a longer commute, particularly if you commute to work as well. When I lived in MD, I commuted to DC (which was an hour) and my barn was an hour in the opposite direction. Not fun, and it definitely prevented me from having much of a life outside of work and horses.

Even now I drive about 45 minutes to the barn, but I work from home so it’s much more manageable.

If your schedule or finances don’t allow the longer commute, consider switching disciplines. You could also ask in local FB groups about anyone who has a horse on the back burner that you might be able to ride (if your skill set and level allows). But you could get some crazy horses or responses, so be prepared.

[Arlomine]

Never Go Back Again.
Not riding is better than being complicit in this sort of sorry excuse for training.

[Mander]

Thanks for the validation and suggestions everyone.

I feel like she was gaslighting me into thinking that was a perfectly normal and acceptable thing to do and she made me feel crazy and dramatic for not wanting to do it, but I just couldn’t get my mind off it even days after. Maybe it does “work”, but that’s not the type of horseperson I want to be.

I’ll give the hour away barn a try. Fingers crossed they treat their horses better!

[fakeout]

@hoopoe

I would stop riding and save your money for better days

If it doesn’t work out, I second saving your money for better days. I lived in a city with no quality riding around and decided to instead give my body a break (FAI sufferer, break did nothing of course) and save up to pay off debt. I finally was able to buy my own horse this year. Your own situation may be different of course but for me, I am glad I chose to take a break and save my money for future riding endeavours

[BrendaJane]

@Mander

What would you do?

run away
go wester, trick riding, Mogolian steeple chase…anything other than going back to this person

[SadieRidingHorses]

@Arlomine

Never Go Back Again.
Not riding is better than being complicit in this sort of sorry excuse for training

This. Change disciplines, ride at a further/more expensive place less often, volunteer . . . anything but this. Not good for your mental health and not the kind of trainer you want to support.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I was reading your story, and I agree that this teacher is less than ideal for you.

But if you HAVE TO go to that stable to ride I do have a suggestion.

Years ago I got the book “The Art of Training” by Hans von Blixen-Finecke who has extensive experience, from being the Commandant of the Swedish Army Equitation school, a gold medalist in Olympic 3-Day event etc…

Blixen-Finecke writes about the rider’s leg acting on a “front leg button” with the rider’s lower leg an inch or two more forward than the normal neutral position and a “hind leg button” where the lower leg is an inch or two back from the neutral position. I tried this, but because of my MS I could never reliably get my lower leg exactly right all the time so my aids were inconsistent to say the least. But a decent rider with an operating nervous system should be able to do this without any trouble.

Are you in a private lesson now? Could you ask for a private lesson? You could tell her she has pointed out a fault in your aids, that you for some reason or another cannot really give an aid on the shoulder (for me I lose all balance and my seat goes to hell) and you would like to experiment with the front leg button and the hind leg button until you get it right.

This is an excellent book. He discusses a movement with picky details of the aids, what to look for (what merits rewarding the horse), difficulties that can come up and the best way to fix your or the horse’s mistakes.

Please realize YOU will have two students in these lessons, the horse and your riding teacher. Sometimes that is the price you have to pay to get to a peaceful solution to these blow-ups of this teacher. I have spent over a decade doing this with my riding teacher and all three of us, me, my teacher and the horse I ride improve. I just view this as the non-monetary price I pay to get good lessons at a less than ideal stable for me with my particular problems from my MS (my riding teacher is really good but not familiar with teaching someone who has the physical problems I have).

But your best bet is probably to take lessons at the other stable, the other posters are correct about this. If you decide you can’t manage the drive, what I wrote may be a solution that ends up with a peaceful ride for you, the horse and your teacher and totally remove the necessity of giving a leg aid on the shoulder of the horse.

[Arlomine]

If the teacher knew how to teach better, she would have.
People show you who they are, and one should believe them.
Don’t. Go. Back.

[atl_hunter]

@Mander, this is an extremely abusive situation, so why are you even asking us? Don’t walk away - RUN! If all you are saying is true, and the mare is THAT stiff that she can’t take the correct lead, cannot bend, that all you can achieve is a pivot, then the combination of you, this horse, and this trainer is clearly not working. Chasing you around a circle? Screaming at you to “yank her head up?” Knocking over blocks? What emotionally intelligent adult even acts this way, and what emotionally intelligent adult tolerates this? “Kick the horse in the shoulder?”

This horse likely has a physical issue if what you are saying is true and that you understand the true mechanics of riding on a circle - I truly don’t understand how you got to a pivot if you were truly attempting to ride this horse on a circle, riding inside leg to outside rein unless you had zero forward motion - really having trouble visualizing how you got to a pivot here. Suffice to say it’s all wrong. Worst of all - this poor horse who doesn’t have the choice to leave. Move on!!! Maybe find a nice dressage barn or western dressage barn.