Kitten's Joy to... ???

[Texarkana]

TDN Article
Ramsey Says He’s Intent on Standing Kitten’s Joy in Europe

Bloodhorse Article
Ramsey Farm Swamped by Inquiries for Kitten’s Joy

In summary, Mr. Ramsey (who has traditionally been vocal about breeding his stallion to race, not to sell), is disappointed that the Kitten’s Joy September yearlings undersold yet again. So he has taken to the press to advertise his intentions to go play with his stallion on another court.

Kitten’s Joy has been one of the more fascinating case studies in stallion management, so I am always eager to hear other’s opinions on the subject.

[skydy]

I can appreciate his feelings about the future of his stallion. He wants the horse to have a better chance at stud and a legacy that he is apparently unlikely to achieve in the U.S. but could quite possibly be had in Europe.

The rather disastrous F.T. “Turf Yearling Sale” served to underscore the fact that the U.S. buyers and breeders are not into Turf horses.

I understand and respect the desire to have a “no-shuttle” and a “return-him-home-when-he’s-pensioned” agreement. It will be interesting to see what happens. I’d like to see him go to the U.K. or Europe and see what he does with those mares. He will obviously produce some excellent race horses but it would be fun to see him go to the U.K. and see if he produces any good National Hunt Racers as well.

[kocasmurat]

I clearly understand Mr. Ramsey’s upset about Kentucky September Yerling Sale results. Kitten’s Joy is actually the leading North American Sire by earnings if you do not count misleading Pegasus World Cup earnings.

On the other hand, his progeny has shone in Europe this year as Group 1 horses Hawkbill, Taareef and smart newcomers Roaring Lion and Liquid Amber.

My guess is that He will be replaced to Nunnery Stud, UK which is part of Shadwell Stud.
Second option is Haras de Bouquetot, FRA on behalf of Al Shaqab.

I think only these two has enaugh power to buy Kittens Joy alongside Darley and Coolmore who has full of Sadler Wells sire line stallions.

Whatever happens, I belve he will be the one of the best Europen Sires. I wish him good luck and well deserved interest.

[Texarkana]

@skydy and @kocasmurat (welcome!)

I agree with your points to some degree. I can fully understand wanting your stallion to the get respect he undoubtedly deserves. Personally, I have become a big fan of the stallion and would send a mare to him in a heartbeat if money were no option.

And I agree that if Mr. Ramsey truly wants his horse to leave a legacy, Europe is the place for him. Especially considering that Kitten’s Joy is finally adding international success to his resume.

But I also don’t think you can “buck the system,” then complain the system is not showing you respect. The marketplace values 3 y/o dirt form, catalog pages, and a specific physical type above all. This isn’t just because of polarization; our racing culture provides almost zero opportunities for turf runners who can’t perform consistently in graded stakes. I’m not sure why he thinks the US market is going to change on account of his horse.

It’s intriguing to see the career Mr. Ramsey has created for his stallion out of what most would consider “cheap” mares. He bought and claimed mares because of pedigree nicks and distant families, not because of immediate blacktype. He has bred multiple graded stakes winners out of mares who were probably more likely to end up advertised on CANTER than at a Kentucky breeding shed. But this also means that KJs have some of the weakest catalog pages at the sale. What other six figure stallion has so many yearlings who can fit the 4th dam on the catalog page?!?

If KJ had not had Mr. Ramsey’s backing, I don’t believe he would have ever achieved a fraction of the success he has seen. Mr. Ramsey made the horse. But you also can’t continue to flood the market with turf specialists from “weak” families, then complain the buyers aren’t respecting them.

[Palm_Beach]

Great post Tex. I’m not much into breeding, and know nothing about Europe (except where it is on a map). I think Ken Ramsey is a genius, but would have fared much better with this stallion overseas. I never understood the desire for a turf horse over here, since there is not much turf racing compared to Europe. I hope the horse does well.

[Pronzini]

Great post Texarkana and I’m not sure I can add much of substance. My feeling is that he has been a genius in making this stallion particularly with “cheap” mares, but then he couldn’t let go and let the market take over. Instead of pricing the stallion competitively, he set a $100,000 stud fee when that ensured that no commercial breeder can make a profit and, with the exception of a rarified few, that is just too expensive for breed to race.

Then his response to tepid sales figures which were entirely predictable seems rash and petulant. How about instead of a $100,000 fee, he sets it at $50,000 and he is very selective about which mare he will breed him to and provide incentives to Europeans to ship to Kentucky? If it is truly not about the money, he should stop making it about the money.

In some ways though, I don’t think it is about the money per se except that poor sales figures are a form of disrespect in his view. Instead of focusing on War Front, he should look at Candy Ride–an amazing stallion of dirt runners around two turns but he tends to sire small and plain and his commercial stats reflect that which has depressed his stud fee to $60,000 (although he had a relatively nice year at the sales this year). The point is that the tail can’t wag the commercial market. When people with money pay high six figures for a yearling, they want all boxes to be checked. Candy Ride with all of his dirt success doesn’t ring those bells–why would Kitten’s Joy?

[Texarkana]

@Pronzini

Great post Texarkana and I’m not sure I can add much of substance. My feeling is that he has been a genius in making this stallion particularly with “cheap” mares, but then he couldn’t let go and let the market take over. Instead of pricing the stallion competitively, he set a $100,000 stud fee when that ensured that no commercial breeder can make a profit and, with the exception of a rarified few, that is just too expensive for breed to race.

Then his response to tepid sales figures which were entirely predictable seems rash and petulant. How about instead of a $100,000 fee, he sets it at $50,000 and he is very selective about which mare he will breed him to and provide incentives to Europeans to ship to Kentucky? If it is truly not about the money, he should stop making it about the money.

In some ways though, I don’t think it is about the money per se except that poor sales figures are a form of disrespect in his view. Instead of focusing on War Front, he should look at Candy Ride–an amazing stallion of dirt runners around two turns but he tends to sire small and plain and his commercial stats reflect that which has depressed his stud fee to $60,000 (although he had a relatively nice year at the sales this year). The point is that the tail can’t wag the commercial market. When people with money pay high six figures for a yearling, they want all boxes to be checked. Candy Ride with all of his dirt success doesn’t ring those bells–why would Kitten’s Joy?

Prozini, I almost always agree with your every word and this is no exception. I wanted to yell EXACTLY while reading this. :yes:

The few Kitten’s Joys who do sell for a profit are the ones with the paper (and the physicality) to justify their stud fees. If you want the market to respond more favorably to your horse, then give the market what it wants.

The stallion is past the point of having to prove his ability; everyone knows he can get world class turf horses. Stop churning out cheap grass horses for the sake of quantity when there isn’t anywhere for them to go; refocus your efforts on attracting the best mares. Mr. Ramsey is always saying he turns away mares left and right, but I find that really hard to believe judging the numbers in KJ’s book versus what ends up at the sales.

But for whatever reason, he’d rather leave for Europe in a huff. Which is fine and probably not a bad move, but it also doesn’t seem necessary. He did a brilliant job creating this horse, if it’s truly “not about the money” then it seems plausible he could manage him to suit the market.

[Forego]

Great post !
I would also like to add, that sometimes Kitten’S Joy can throw a somewhat wonky knee.
It would be a huge hit to all but the biggest breeders to shell out that kind of stud fee and have, that issue in a foal.
I have sent a mare to KY to be bred on 3 different occasions and the costs for me were pretty significant.
So breeders have to really have to weigh all this, plus the fact that Kitten’s Joy gets a lot of mares so you are competing against all the other Kitten’s Joys out there.
Last year I bred to a son of Candy Ride,( Candy Ride can also throw cooked legs), but I would not have taken the chance if I was headed for the sales.
Breeders are really up against it with the costs and the fickle market.
However I love Kitten’s Joy and I think he should do well in Europe.

L

[skydy]

Derby Day Kitten was shown in the TB Breed class at the Dressage at Devon Horse Show today. http://www.foxvillage.com/fvdshowres…sh=5141&cl=319

http://www.pedigreequery.com/derby+day+kitten

[Texarkana]

@skydy

Derby Day Kitten was shown in the TB Breed class at the Dressage at Devon Horse Show today. http://www.foxvillage.com/fvdshowres…sh=5141&cl=319

http://www.pedigreequery.com/derby+day+kitten

Another reason I hate to see him go! How many TB race sires can get dressage quality gaits these days?

But while this horse was bred several years ago, he’s a good example of why buyers don’t “respect” what’s available by Kitten’s Joy. If you were to evaluate his dam’s paper alone, she had no business being bred to a $100k stallion. Yet she continued to be bred to KJ after his fee increased and she produced nothing. It’s easy to judge in retrospect, so I’m not saying I know better. But it wouldn’t matter if KJ or Tapit was on the top of the catalog page for a yearling from this mare; the resulting foal will never tick all the boxes needed to garner six figures on the market because the female family is so weak immediately. A yearling will have literally nothing of noteworthiness on the page until the 3rd dam. Further back it’s a great family, but the market doesn’t want “just” a great 3rd dam.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Ken Ramsey is now saying Kitten’s Joy will be staying stateside. He’s current looking for breeding farm partnership.

Sounds like breeders in KY are now wanting to see KJ to stay here

[LaurieB]

Much ado about nothing.

But Ken Ramsey got his headlines so he’s happy.

[gumtree]

He’s too expensive at $100,000 plan and simple.

I met Ken years ago leaning against a tree at the Keeneland Sept sale. Be he jump into the game with both feet. Had mostly claimers from time to time. He explained to me how he hit the “lottery” the the cell phone lottery and now he had the money to play the game they way he wanted on on his terms.

I had a number of conversations with him not long after that. He had plan having studied the business/industry for a long time. He’s a smart guy. One of which was the use of computer, from what I gathered much the same way Wall-street embraced and uses. I told him IMO there are too many “intangibles” that are beyond his controls pretty much anybodies control. In mountain climbing they are called objective dangers.

Years later I had a sit down with him and asked how the computer thing was working for him. He kind of laughed and we moved on to other things and had to from “computers”.

He had/has the pockets to be "big"in the business and he certainly has. But he is and will never be bigger than the industry as a whole. The folks in Lex don’t much like people rock-n the boat, speaking out of turn in their collective opinion.

Even though he said he wanted to sell 51% controlling interest. I don’t see him ever not being a big part, demanding part of the picture regardless of who purchased and stood the horse, lol. I think it would be a tough sell to any of the “names” in the business of stallions.

Ramsey may not be everybody’s cup of tea but I like him.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Never really paid attention to KJ’s stud fee until and now even in my neophyte brain, $!00,000 seems a tad on the high side for what Kitten’s Joy produces.

I think he’s a decent turf sire but there are others and turf, at least in the US, doesn’t appear to be where the $$ is

gumtree, I always like your industry insights… helps me get a better understanding sometimes of the “politics” behind the sport

[Texarkana]

Turf sires have been able to garner six figure fees in the US (Kingmambo, War Front, Giants Causeway, El Prado, et al.), but they’ve been managed differently with more euro backing. Someone like Giants Causeway is an interesting case study to draw comparisons, as his fee has been reined in despite incredible success and direct access to an international mare population.

Those sires also are a bit more versatile; if Kitten’s Joy could get the occasional quality dirt horse, it would be a game changer.

I’m glad he’s staying, I was hoping that would be the outcome. I didn’t need the fanfare, though.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Hill n’ Dale for 2018 standing for $60K

I surely am not the most knowledgeable but seems to me like a more realistic fee?

[Texarkana]

@Where'sMyWhite

Hill n’ Dale for 2018 standing for $60K

I surely am not the most knowledgeable but seems to me like a more realistic fee?

MUCH more realistic fee IMO.

Hill 'n Dale has made some smart negotiations lately. I imagine this will be another of them.

[Where_sMyWhite]

FWIW, I like the KJ offspring but I was :eek: when I heard what his previous stud fee was.

Glad that Hill n’ Dale will be involved hopefully to get the “right” mares to KJ and a more reasonable stud fee

[Texarkana]

In his slight defense, Mr. Ramsey jumped his fee to $100K for the 2014 season.

To put this in perspective: (story time)

The Ramsey’s were Eclipse winning owners of the year yet again, with their chief earners almost exclusively by Kitten’s Joy.

Kitten’s Joy was the leading sire in North America with 6(?) BC runners and G1 winners out the wazoo.

As for six figure stallions, there wasn’t all that much competition, thanks to the prior recession tempering prices and some key loses of stallions at the top of their game. There was room in the market for another “superstar.” I have only met Mr. Ramsey in passing and am not privy to his thought process, but I don’t think anyone would disagree that he seizes every opportunity to be in the limelight. And it was a logical time to seize the limelight.

Then the market began to recover. American Pharoah happened. Some older stallions’ stock continued to rise, some younger stallions shot to the top. Suddenly, competition for the best mares got a whole lot stiffer.

And here you still have Mr. Ramsey still breeding 100+ of his and his buddies’ mares to his stallion; many of these mares with $20K pedigrees at best. He’s spouting how he breeds his stallion to race, not to sell. But they’re still flooding the sales in excess of 50 yearlings at a time with these mismatched catalog pages. This is in addition to the fact that these are average looking turf prospects in a market where dirt rules. These horses drive down KJ’s sales figures and scare off anyone with a modicum of business sense who hopes to profit off the mating.

Mr. Ramsey’s management of this stallion was nothing short of genius up until 2014. But from a strictly commercial standpoint, it kind of fell off the rails when he insisted on keeping his horse at $100K despite an increase in competition and with little apparent alteration in management.

Or at least this is my opinion on the situation; it’s easy to armchair quarterback. But as someone who aspirations of managing stallions of my own someday (ha), I find it all intriguing and spend more time thinking about it than I probably should.

[skydy]

Thanks for giving that perspective. Very interesting and informative. :yes: