Knee Roll Hassles

[Dressage_Strider]

I apologize if there is already a thread for this - but I was just looking for opinions on knee rolls. I have a saddle with a decent sized knee roll - but it is very squishy and I often end up directly on it, especially when I bring my lower leg back. On saddles with big, hard knee rolls, I really struggle with keeping my toes forward and I brace a lot on the knee rolls. My favorite saddles are the really old dressage saddles with nonexistent teeny tiny knee rolls.

I was just wondering if anyone else has this experience, what it means, and how you combat it?

[netg]

It means the saddle isn’t fitting you properly.

I suspect none of the saddles you mention have knee rolls, and if they fit you as knee rolls that’s your first clue they’re the wrong size altogether. What saddles have now are thigh blocks, and they aren’t supposed to lock you in place but too frequently do.

[alibi_18]

@Dressage_Strider

I apologize if there is already a thread for this -

There are gazillion threads on the subject.

but I was just looking for opinions on knee rolls. I have a saddle with a decent sized knee roll - but it is very squishy and I often end up directly on it, especially when I bring my lower leg back.

If you had the same exact saddle without the pad, your position wouldn’t be better. Your knee shouldn’t crawl up or forward when you move your lower leg.

On saddles with big, hard knee rolls, I really struggle with keeping my toes forward and I brace a lot on the knee rolls. My favorite saddles are the really old dressage saddles with nonexistent teeny tiny knee rolls.

You know, you can buy new saddles with minimal pass/blocks. “Old” saddles aren’t majikàly better.

It won’t prevent you from struggling to keep your toes forward or bracing with your knees. That has nothing to do with the saddle itself IF it fits you and your horse right.

I was just wondering if anyone else has this experience, what it means, and how you combat it?

Find a saddle that fits both you and your horse. You shouldn’t fight for your position.

That doesn’t mean your position will be better with a flat saddle.

Netg :

they aren’t supposed to lock you in place but too frequently do.

And that’s because people don’t try/buy saddle that fits them or their horse.

[Dressage_Strider]

@netg

It means the saddle isn’t fitting you properly.

I suspect none of the saddles you mention have knee rolls, and if they fit you as knee rolls that’s your first clue they’re the wrong size altogether. What saddles have now are thigh blocks, and they aren’t supposed to lock you in place but too frequently do.

ah yes, thigh blocks. I’ve had (2) professional saddle fitters and people at tack stores fit me and they say the saddles fit - which just makes me feel like I’m doing something wrong if the thigh blocks get in the way

[Scribbler]

@Dressage_Strider

ah yes, thigh blocks. I’ve had (2) professional saddle fitters and people at tack stores fit me and they say the saddles fit - which just makes me feel like I’m doing something wrong if the thigh blocks get in the way

Well, as with fit for the horse, it’s how it all works in motion that matters, not what it seems like at the tack store.

You also need a tryout with your coach in a riding lesson for your coach to be able to say if the saddle helps or hinders your specific position problems. Everyone has a position problem. Some people have fixed theirs, but if they get tired or lazy, it creeps back. Some people have physical issues like tight or uneven hips that mean they may never get their toes pointed forward, etc. And everyone takes a while to develop a longer and longer and looser leg, and may need shorter stirrups for a while.

I personally want a saddle that is open enough in its configuration that I can have longer or shorter stirrups, within reason, without the thigh blocks or knee rolls making that impossible.

It might all look great at the tack store, but if you are uncomfortable while actively riding then the saddle is not a good fit for you at this point in time, period.

[jaybird660]

It’s such a subjective thing. It might look like it fits you according to a fitter but if you feel uncomfortable or restricted, then it is not a good fit. Many saddles can be made with smaller front blocks or velcro if they are not surface blocks. The balance of the saddle itself can make the blocks cumbersome if not correct. The rise of the pommel and cantle and available “butt” space can influence how your leg hits the block, as well as, stirrup bar placement. Deeper seats and larger blocks sometimes mean bigger seat sizes.

[MysticOakRanch]

@Dressage_Strider

I apologize if there is already a thread for this - but I was just looking for opinions on knee rolls. I have a saddle with a decent sized knee roll - but it is very squishy and I often end up directly on it, especially when I bring my lower leg back. On saddles with big, hard knee rolls, I really struggle with keeping my toes forward and I brace a lot on the knee rolls. My favorite saddles are the really old dressage saddles with nonexistent teeny tiny knee rolls.

I was just wondering if anyone else has this experience, what it means, and how you combat it?

The majycal saddles of the good ol days. If that is what you want, get on eBay or Craigslist and buy one. Plenty out there for under $600.

Several have already pointed out your saddle saddle probably doesn’t fit, I don’t have to repeat that. But before you run out and buy an ancient Keiffer or Passier, please look at its panels. So many of those old saddles were not kind to a horses back. Narrow gullet channel that pinched the spinal support muscling. Panels hard as a rock. And riders comfortably in chair seats.

There yre are some decent fitting older saddles you might like. Neidersuiss has minimal thigh block and tends to fit a lot of horses well. Some of the older Albions, such as the Style/SL, same thing.

Most modern saddles can can be ordered with small or removeable thigh blocks. And until you ride on your horse, you will not know if the saddle is right for you or the horse Period. You can not pick or fit a saddle sitting on a fake horse. Period. No exceptions.

The thigh roll should simply be there, not in the way, not locking you in, but there if you need it, like an SOS strap.

[MsM]

Another question to ask: Does the knee roll or thigh block bother you when your legs are in a correct position, or only when they move out of position? Big difference!

[Scribbler]

@MsM

Another question to ask: Does the knee roll or thigh block bother you when your legs are in a correct position, or only when they move out of position? Big difference!

Yes. Though a related question is: are you able to keep your legs in a completely correct position while you ride all gaits and moves, or is your position still a work in progress? If you need shorter stirrups than ideal, or if you get tossed against the thigh blocks at the canter, or if the thigh blocks are forcing you to tip over forward, then they won’t be very useful in helping you develop a better seat since you won’t be able to ride with them now. And there is some combination of the balance of the seat and thigh blocks, so if the seat is putting you in a place that doesn’t work with your body type, femur length, etc. and these thigh blocks, that won’t work. I think the jumpers pay more detailed attention to femur length as they really need the knee rolls to be in the right place and they think about whether they need short or long or more forward flaps on the saddle. In dressage the ideal is to have the leg drop much more straight down, of course, but in practice it often is not all that straight down, especially at intermediate rider levels.

[Tanny98]

I have owned both. And do have both kinds now. I have a Black Country Eden that has a more open seat and smallerish blocks. I also have a Hulsebos WB4. I think with the minimalist saddles they are easier to sit because they allow you room to find your sweet spot where your comfortable. The deeper the saddle gets and bigger the blocks get the more personal the saddle gets and is extremely individual in fit. Either they work or they don’t. I rode in minimalist saddles for so long that when I got my Eden I thought it was going to be too much, but it fit my pony so well and it’s ok for me. I avoided big blocks like the plague because the ones I had sat it just didn’t work at all. When the WB4 was a good fit for my other boy I did have to learn to ride
in it, and now I love it.

edit: I do have long femurs and I have found that only half blocks will work, I can’t personally do the full long blocks…

[MysticOakRanch]

@Scribbler

In dressage the ideal is to have the leg drop much more straight down, of course, but in practice it often is not all that straight down, especially at intermediate rider levels.

I’d add, the leg doesn’t actually drop straight down, it must have bend at the knee and ability to flex at the hip to be effective. Our leg is much straighter and longer then a jumper rider, but there must me some bend in the knee (about a 45 degree angle) to be able to use the leg. We often see riders with a too straight leg, struggling to keep their stirrup and really unable to use their leg.

[Dressage_Strider]

@Scribbler

Yes. Though a related question is: are you able to keep your legs in a completely correct position while you ride all gaits and moves, or is your position still a work in progress? If you need shorter stirrups than ideal, or if you get tossed against the thigh blocks at the canter, or if the thigh blocks are forcing you to tip over forward, then they won’t be very useful in helping you develop a better seat since you won’t be able to ride with them now. And there is some combination of the balance of the seat and thigh blocks, so if the seat is putting you in a place that doesn’t work with your body type, femur length, etc. and these thigh blocks, that won’t work. I think the jumpers pay more detailed attention to femur length as they really need the knee rolls to be in the right place and they think about whether they need short or long or more forward flaps on the saddle. In dressage the ideal is to have the leg drop much more straight down, of course, but in practice it often is not all that straight down, especially at intermediate rider levels.

This really makes sense - I struggle most when asking for the haunches in, pirouette and downward transitions.

My trainer has mentioned that I lean forward when I ride in one of her saddles with the full thigh block - I may insist on riding in mine without the blocks and see how that affects things

[keysfins]

As others mentioned, it may also be a factor of the length of your femur. I had one saddle that I kept riding in even though I felt like the thigh block position was not working with my femur length. Not only did I feel locked into position, I felt jammed up from my knee/thigh to my hip and lower back. That’s painful!

I went back to my “good old majikal” Windsor saddle that is open with a small thigh roll. I found I was comfortable again, able to move my legs as I needed, and was not locked in my hips.

It isn’t JUST the thigh block involved, when your leg doesn’t not drape as you like. Sometimes it is a combination of block, seat size, twist and how open or snug the seat is.

[rothmpp]

I’m going to agree with those that say if your leg is coming against and over the thigh block - the seat and build of the saddle does not work with you and your horse. Especially where you commented that it happens in pirouettes and downward transitions. Your upper leg should be independent of your lower leg and not shifting so much when you move your lower leg back. It almost sounds like you are drawing your heel up in those moments rather than back.

What does your trainer say about your position in the saddle with the bigger blocks?

[Dressage_Strider]

I was riding bareback this morning and noticed when I tried to close my leg for a halfhalt my entire leg came up, like my knees moved forward even. I am 5’9" and all legs and I wonder if I am rotating incorrectly to be able to feel the horse.

Time for more yoga?

[Scribbler]

Is the horse narrow or too small for you to get your calf on normally?

[keysfins]

@Dressage_Strider

I was riding bareback this morning and noticed when I tried to close my leg for a halfhalt my entire leg came up, like my knees moved forward even. I am 5’9" and all legs and I wonder if I am rotating incorrectly to be able to feel the horse.

Time for more yoga?

Good observation on your part. Where do your knees point when you are in what feels like your “neutral” leg position, and where do your toes point? If your knees are coming up, you might be tight in the hip and your quads may be firing to half-halt instead.

Have you tried lifting your whole leg off, rotating leg inward from the hip and then allowing leg to drape down? (Having a friend help you from the ground can help.) If you try that, your knee and toe should be pointing more forward. It almost feels like the inner part of the quad is laying against the horse, and the front of your shin. Almost imagine doing a (slight) snowplow as if skiing.

If that feels really tight in the area that wraps around your hip, then it just may be time for more yoga and/or stretching, particularly the piriformis. Try very gentle stretching, because it is easy to have this muscle group (used for internal rotation) tighten up to prevent over-stretching, and that can be painful.

[Dressage_Strider]

Yeah I go to the chiro and am constantly fighting the toe out

I ride about 15 horses a week of all different builds so it totally has to be me,

[keysfins]

@Dressage_Strider

Yeah I go to the chiro and am constantly fighting the toe out

I ride about 15 horses a week of all different builds so it totally has to be me,

Do you feel like you have the same issues on different horses, in different saddles?

[Dressage_Strider]

no, smaller blocks I never notice it, and horses that are more sensitive I don’t notice it.