KS Spin-off - what DO you do with the young, unsound horse?

[Tucker5]

I raise beef cattle so this talk about euthanizing for convenience is simply an attempt to claim moral high ground. It strikes me as self-righteous and arrogant.

In this country very few have a true medical need to eat meat. There are so many other options and that’s without including meat substitutes. But at the end of the day, people enjoy eating meat. They enjoy eggs, cheese, yogurt, all sorts of animal produced foods. So these animals are used and slaughtered not only for your convenience but for your eating pleasure. Yet, some want to condemn another for not spending a small fortune on maintaining a pasture pet for decades? Take that self-righteous indignation somewhere else.

[lenapesadie]

@Tucker5

So these animals are used and slaughtered not only for your convenience but for your eating pleasure . Yet, some want to condemn another for not spending a small fortune on maintaining a pasture pet for decades? Take that self-righteous indignation somewhere else.

I hear you feel passionately that due to cost that it should be ok to PTS a pasture puff.

There are indeed situations where finances play a role in determining the level of medical care that one’s pets receive.

But if you (g) can afford a riding horse you can afford a pasture puff. I question the ethics of euthanizing a pasture puff to make room in the budget for a riding horse.

[Tucker5]

Absolutely, I agree with euthanizing a young pasture puff that will require substantial financial investment over decades. Just as a beef cow that turns up open at preg check will be shipped. It’s not a matter of not owning an animal unless you’re going to do ALL the things. Nope. Doesn’t work that way in the livestock world and don’t delude yourself, you benefit from that.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@Tucker5

Doesn’t work that way in the livestock world and don’t delude yourself, you benefit from that.

Do you eat horses? Because I’m not getting the analogy.

[lenapesadie]

Well then I guess I question your ethics.

Horses are not beef cattle. People showing prancing ponies are not cattle ranchers.

[fordtraktor]

As someone who has a 30 year old retired pony on the feed bill that will stay with us as long as she’s comfortable, and who euthanized an 8 yo dangerous mare without a confirmed diagnosis earlier this year (if you want to hear about that saga, go read the Foal Watch 2023 thread) – I do not think it is common to do convenience euthanasia. I am sure there are outliers, but all the euths I know of have been agonizing decisions to make, none made lightly.

My pony isn’t “sound” – the farrier was here today and she struggles with her hind trims a little, even with bute. Her knee arthritis makes her unrideable because she trips (and actually fell a couple of times before she was taken off duty completely). But she’s happy, in good weight, and has been the most wonderful nanny pony anyone could want.

I am sure I could place her as a companion, and I do loan her out to a summer camp where the kids absolutely adore her. They paint her and brush her and bathe her and otherwise pamper her for a few months, and she loves it. But I will never give up control so that I can make the ultimate decision when it is her time. She has served my family for 14 years now, and deserves that dignity.

The other one? I ultimately could not bear to give up control over her, either. There are so many bad things that can happen to a dangerous horse – at least on my watch, I knew none of them would ever happen to her.

To be honest, I have felt nothing but a profound sense of relief over that decision. I think I did all my grieving for her long before that last day. Having responsibility for the management and care of a vicious animal is a profound stress I would not wish on anyone.

I think In general this community is very supportive of the hard decisions our members sometimes have to make, and I hope that never changes.

[ClearDonkey]

I think convenience and euthanasia rarely belong in the same sentence, especially when it comes to a young, unwell horse. I’d venture to say most owners who decide that euthanasia is the best course of action for their young horse hurt over the decision for months, if not years, with hundreds or thousands of dollars into trainers, saddle fitters, bodyworkers, specialty farriers, veterinary diagnostics, etc. etc. trying to find a solution that doesn’t mean a permanent end. I don’t think any of that is ‘convenience’.

I could give examples of my personal experience with euthanizing the young horse or wondering if I should, but that doesn’t matter. It’s a personal decision, that no horse owner should be looked down on for. It doesn’t matter if that owner goes on to purchase another horse after that is riding sound, or if the owner owns another horse that is happily retired to pasture, or or or… What matters is that the decision is made between the owner and a trusted veterinary professional.

[Lunabear1988]

Your last two paragraphs really speak to me! My horse that would drag his head on the ground was a multi-year medical battle right after I got him. It was awful and I tried so much and grieved so hard when the inevitable became clear. It became clear a few months before I actually euthanized him but I definitely grieved hard for months before. And I will say there is some relief. Just because it was so hard to not be able to help him.

And I’ve found COTH was extraordinarily helpful for me when I was trying to figure out how to help that horse and then many people were very very kind when I made that awful decision. It’s been 5 years and that horse’s photos line my bedroom. He was so so special to me. But looking back, I tried my best and I know I made the right decision.

COTH was also there for me when my next horse suddenly started falling and we found he had wobblers.
I’m so grateful. It’s not a decision that most people take lightly.

[Lunabear1988]

I agree so much.

[Tucker5]

Livestock.

The point is that some claim horses must be kept forever and ever while other animals are killed for the convenience and pleasure of those very same individuals. And they couch this in terms of morals and ethics. So, a cow is totally fine to kill and eat cause you enjoy it. But it’s morally wrong to euth and bury a young unsound horse to remove the financial burden? This is something I can’t wrap my brain around.

I should have realized that this comparison wouldn’t be well received by those who haven’t worked with cattle. And I may be in a unique position as the herd is relatively small and closely managed. These cows know us - how we look and smell, our call, the trucks. It’s hard to view them as horse=pet keeping individuals might.

To me it’s never convenient to euth a young unsound horse. It’s extremely difficult to make and follow through on that decision. In my limited experience these individuals tend to be more aware of an animal’s discomfort and potential pain levels than those that insist a horse must be kept forever. Obviously, there are exceptions but it’s interesting and frustrating to see the tendencies.

[AmmyHour926]

@ClearDonkey

I think convenience and euthanasia rarely belong in the same sentence, especially when it comes to a young, unwell horse. I’d venture to say most owners who decide that euthanasia is the best course of action for their young horse hurt over the decision for months, if not years, with hundreds or thousands of dollars into trainers, saddle fitters, bodyworkers, specialty farriers, veterinary diagnostics, etc. etc. trying to find a solution that doesn’t mean a permanent end. I don’t think any of that is ‘convenience’.

I could give examples of my personal experience with euthanizing the young horse or wondering if I should, but that doesn’t matter. It’s a personal decision, that no horse owner should be looked down on for. It doesn’t matter if that owner goes on to purchase another horse after that is riding sound, or if the owner owns another horse that is happily retired to pasture, or or or… What matters is that the decision is made between the owner and a trusted veterinary professional.

All of this!

[Incantation]

My trimmer told me she had a client that retired a horse to a big farm down south, and asked if I had considered that for my TB. I believe the place she was talking about is that place where horses are treated as basically feral. Tossed out to pasture, and pulled back in twice a year for trims and worming. No vet care, just letting nature take it’s course.
It is a very affordable option,($150/mo last I checked), but it would be hell for my TB because he is not pasture sound barefoot, he is thinned skinned and looses his mind with bugs, and he is a very anxious horse, prone to ulcers, and who many horses do not like to be around do to his anxious energy. I can’t think of a worse fate for him, besides slaughter, and I think that might be a toss up.
My pony on the other hand would probably retire quite well there, however I would not be comfortable letting him die a slow painful death from organ failure or the like.
The people that claim the moral high ground around euthanizing horses are IME the ones who are very removed from nature and death. The ones I know personally are the ones who will let their elderly dog linger on way past the time when the dog had any QOL.
The only youngish horse I have had to euthanize to date, was one who had a bad founder who we could not make comfortable, so it was no reasonable choice but to euthanize. Should I make that same decision for my TB in the future, it will not be convenient or easy, but it will be a relief from the stress and constant worry about his QOL.

[lenapesadie]

@Tucker5

Livestock.

The point is that some claim horses must be kept forever and ever while other animals are killed for the convenience and pleasure of those very same individuals. And they couch this in terms of morals and ethics. So, a cow is totally fine to kill and eat cause you enjoy it. But it’s morally wrong to euth and bury a young unsound horse to remove the financial burden? This is something I can’t wrap my brain around.

I should have realized that this comparison wouldn’t be well received by those who haven’t worked with cattle. And I may be in a unique position as the herd is relatively small and closely managed. These cows know us - how we look and smell, our call, the trucks. It’s hard to view them as horse=pet keeping individuals might.

To me it’s never convenient to euth a young unsound horse. It’s extremely difficult to make and follow through on that decision. In my limited experience these individuals tend to be more aware of an animal’s discomfort and potential pain levels than those that insist a horse must be kept forever. Obviously, there are exceptions but it’s interesting and frustrating to see the tendencies.

Pets.

You assume much about the experiences of others.

I don’t see anyone insisting that horses be kept forever? Lots of scenarios have been presented and agreed upon whereas euthanasia is in the best interest of the horse.

Euthanasia is a difficult decision to make even when it is in the best interest of a beloved pet. I don’t believe there are any significant numbers of people that find euthanasia convenient as a standalone event, but if an otherwise happy and healthy animal is PTS bc it can’t play sports then most people will call that a convenience euthanasia because the driving factor is that it’s more convenient for the owner to choose death over footing the bill. That’s not in the best interest of the horse, that’s in the best interest of the human.

Is a convenience euthanasia ethically questionable? I say yes. Is it as questionable as dumping a horse at an auction with the threat of a one way ride to Mexico? I say no.

Is the current system of commercial chicken/pig/cattle production ethically questionable? I say yes. Is the current system of commercial row cropping ethically questionable? I say yes.

I say that folks might should think long and hard what their retirement plans are for their horses. Every single horse needs to quit playing sports one day. What then? Holding the lead rope at the last vet appointment is damn hard. Think about what the plan is if this horse suddenly can’t play the sport you (g) dream about.

[M1ssmouse]

Had one PTS that came out of well know Irish sale, they didn’t x ray backs at the time. He was miserable ridden and too tricky to go to a hacking home. It was the only option sadly.

[fivestrideline]

I think the (perhaps personal) distinction between “livestock” and “pets” is one that really does color people’s opinions on this issue. You can have a pet cow, or pet pig, or pet horse, but they are still technically livestock. It’s fine to pick a side for yourself, but I also don’t think it’s incorrect for others to take a more pragmatic approach to horses either.

This thread wasn’t started about the horses that can no longer do a “sport”, it’s talking about the horses that are off enough (physically or mentally) to be relegated to lawn-mower-no-your-kid-can’t-walk-around-on-it status; a status that many agree might not really count as pasture sound and is certainly not rehomeable. Not everyone can buy a farm and keep their retirees, even if they once could. I think this is an issue that will come up for a lot of people as our economy continues to stretch the gap between wages and living costs.

[endlessclimb]

I don’t think it’s unfair to consider the human’s goals and intents in owning a horse, too.

By and large, we own them to be able to ride them.

It’s not like someone is relegating their unrideable horse to a lifetime of pain and suffering and starvation in order to get a horse they can enjoy the way the human wants. They’re humanely ending their life, with dignity and a fully belly.

I still don’t have a problem with it, personally. There are worse things in life, than death.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@fivestrideline

I think the (perhaps personal) distinction between “livestock” and “pets” is one that really does color people’s opinions on this issue. You can have a pet cow, or pet pig, or pet horse , but they are still technically livestock. It’s fine to pick a side for yourself, but I also don’t think it’s incorrect for others to take a more pragmatic approach to horses either.

I assume that most people here frown upon euthanizing racing dogs like greyhounds and, in places like Portugal, euthanizing Galgos dogs that won’t hunt. Are they livestock? Horses were and maybe still are eaten in some places (i.e., France) so they were clearly livestock there.

We have evolved in our thinking about other species (and even our own; remember Native Americans and Africans were considered to be savages or subhuman). Economics definitely plays a role in this, but it is not the whole story. I think that it is dismissive to label animals either “livestock” or “pets.” But pets may be closer to what horses are today in most places, as they are neither used for food or for work.

[WildGooseChase]

If the money isn’t there for lifelong care & treatment, euthanize. Since KS is often secondary to other health conditions, if the resources aren’t there to diagnose, treat and maintain that condition, euthanize.

I wouldn’t sell and I wouldn’t lease in any way, shape or form. There are too many people out there that don’t care and won’t listen to you, and it’s the horse that suffers. Why chance it?

A breeding lease or sale to a breeding home shouldn’t be an option because they’re not sound. If she isn’t sound enough to carry herself around properly, she sure isn’t sound enough to carry a foal to full term. Besides, there is a genetic component to KS. I am not sure why anyone would even breed a horse with it as it’s a HORRIBLE disease with no actual cure. Surgery is extremely invasive and risky, and rehab can only do so much. The horse will need to be rehabbed it’s entire life to stay comfortable.

Hot take though… Shaming others because they don’t have endless amounts of money to spend on a horse they can’t do anything with is sh*tty. Not all of us are made of money, not all of us can care for a horse that cannot be used, because most of us cannot bring this horse home. So I’d rather euthanize that go bankrupt trying to treat a horse with a disease that is notoriously more difficult to manage. Some of the comments here are extremely disappointing. If we drain our resources attempting to care for an animal with these conditions, we can’t care for ourselves even. If we can’t take care of ourselves, how the hell are we going to care for a large animal that fully depends on us?

[Obsidian_Fire]

@WildGooseChase

Shaming others because they don’t have endless amounts of money to spend on a horse they can’t do anything with is sh*tty. Not all of us are made of money, not all of us can care for a horse that cannot be used, because most of us cannot bring this horse home. So I’d rather euthanize that go bankrupt trying to treat a horse with a disease that is notoriously more difficult to manage. Some of the comments here are extremely disappointing. If we drain our resources attempting to care for an animal with these conditions, we can’t care for ourselves even. If we can’t take care of ourselves, how the hell are we going to care for a large animal that fully depends on us?

Thank you for saying this. It is something that weighs on my mind, a lot. Retirement (human) gets closer, not further away, and the closer it gets the more I struggle with how much I’m laying out for the horse I have. I know if we were actually retired, there is no way on earth I could justify, let alone spend, what I have on this animal.

Those who say we should just do and do and do, spend and spend and spend… will you be there to do and do and spend and spend on me when I retire and can’t pay my own way? I think not.
Society doesn’t care that you “made right” by your pets before yourself, when it comes time to fund retirement costs for you.

I am old enough and in a rural enough area to remember low-end auctions with kill buyers present. I remember a mare missing an eye. I wanted to drag her home so badly, my friend had to drag me out of there. The young colt who was so skinny/starved I got a first-hand real life education in skeletal anatomy. The mare should have been PTS, the colt never should have gotten to that point. Instead, they were shipped to auction for 2 reasons: one, the owner got a little money out of it, and two, the owner didn’t have to directly face reality. IMO, those are instances of euth’ing for convenience, as we all know they went to slaughter.
Today, with the demise of slaughterhouses here in the US, we are faced with those same situations only those owners are… what? They didn’t suddenly become ‘better owners’ when they couldn’t just ship the horse off. The rescues are full and overflowing and underfunded and as many others have pointed out, there isn’t land like we used to have and horses (heck, life in general is) are increasingly expensive.
There are no perfect answers, not even ones that are all that great, for those of us who have a heart and a conscious about it. My hope is that when I die, I get to see all my horses again. That I get to apologize to the ones I couldn’t do for, or didn’t know better, and to thank the ones I could for the lessons they taught me.

[GoodTimes]

I don’t think anyone is advocating for going bankrupt to keep a horse going, if that is the situation than in all likelihood the horse is in enough chronic pain that euthanasia is a kinder option. Or if the horse is a danger to handlers, euthanasia is of course appropriate.

I think some posters (myself included) are taking a firm stance on convenience euthanasia’s, even if they are rare. It might not be passing the buck in the way that sending a horse to auction is, but either way it isn’t in the horses best interest. And yes I know that the horse doesn’t know the difference. But if someone out there has this mentality that horses are disposable, than I would tell that person that leasing or part-boarding is likely a better option for them.

Horses as pets vs livestock is a legitimate argument. Personally I keep my old laying hens even when they’ve stopped laying. They get euthanized when the time comes, no different than my dogs or horses. We don’t eat much meat, and most what we do eat comes from hunting. Some people may disagree, but for that particular animal I feel that a quick death at the hands of a hunter is usually kinder than a death by predators, starvation or disease.

I would never attack or judge anyone for euthanizing any horse. No one but the owner really knows the whole story. Each situation is different, there are no hard and fast rules. And at the end of the day “a day, week, month, year, even five years too soon is still better and a moment too late”.