KWPN-Harness Book Horses marketed to H/J

[foursocks]

Well, I wouldn’t, and anyone with experience wouldn’t think that. But it’s amazing what people without experience will buy; a friend has a young giant of a horse in training that the parents imported a few months ago for their tiny little daughter who is a beginner. It is as green as grass and not the mellow family horse with lots of pretty hair they were certain they were getting.

Again, though, buyer beware. If you are looking for a hunter and buy a DHH-x with a flat croup, llama neck, and daisy stomper knee action it’s not the seller’s fault you are ignorant.

[mvp]

I think not describing DHH as that, and marketing it as a KWPN is disingenuous.

It will only annoy the people who appreciate the difference between those two very different books, and will do what, exactly, for the person who doesn’t yet know?

If the answer is, “Well, technically, a DHH horse is also a KWPN horse,” then I think you can see that the seller is in fact hoping to participate in bamboozlement to some degree. Why do that, even, say, as 10% of your sales strategy?

Again, for those of us well-acquainted with horse trading, even that 10% of “not-straight-upness” exhibited by a seller at the beginning of the sales process puts us on guard.

All this is to say, then, that I don’t see the real pay-off of exploiting the complexity of European registration practices for a few ignorant buyers.

[atl_hunter]

I used to show Apploosas and competed at the national level. I had a 3 YOSB HUS gelding that was foundation bred (Rustler Charger) to be a western horse. Based on his bloodlines, he should have been born a 15.2 working cow horse, with potential to excel in halter, reining, roping - you get the picture. He also had some Bright Eyes Brother in there, who was a foundation and Hall of Fame Appaloosa stallion from his performance in the halter ring. He was also known to be handy working with cattle. From his pedigree, this horse should have been a handy little western horse.

His breeder was quite surprised when at 2 (I don’t agree with starting 2 year olds but this is what they did) the horse was so incredibly tall and long-legged that they couldn’t ride him in the roundpen - they had to ride him outside the roundpen. He was a huge, elegant bay hunter. None of them expected this, and they sent him to a trainer and enjoyed their new journey into hunter under saddle classes. The working cattle horse-bred gelding turned out to be his most successful horse, winning a national championship, year end awards in multple HUS divisions, futurities, you name it.

It’s a good thing the trainers didn’t look at his pedigree and instead chose to look at the horse for what he was and what he could do. Had everyone looked at what he was supposed to be instead of what he actually was, the opportunity might have been missed.

Now I ride hunters and I love how a nice horse is a nice horse. You don’t ride the pedigree - you ride the horse. I like that the names aren’t over the top silly trying to pay homage to every horse in the line, and that it truly is about the horse’s performance.

If I owned mares and was looking to have a breeding operation, I’d likely pay more attention. But as I tend to end up with geldings, it really doesn’t matter so much as there is no future for the bloodline in the horse I own.

[Libby2563]

I think I know what seller you’re talking about too. I was shopping for a dressage prospect and noticed a lot of obvious DHHs advertised as “KWPN,” “Dutch,” or “Dutch WB”–which may be technically true, but still seems somewhat deceptive. When you politely inquire about the exact breeding, some of the sellers get weirdly defensive. If you feel you have to be so defensive about basic facts like your horse’s breeding, what does that say about your sales program? A few of the individual horses I’ve seen are quite nice (for dressage, no comment from me on suitability for H/J) so I don’t understand the defensiveness unless your business plan really is to sell to people who don’t know enough to ask any questions at all. I also think some of the prices are ridiculous, but I guess we’re seeing a lot of that these days.

[beowulf]

To play devil’s advocate, my farrier breeds DHH (KPWN registered) and they are nice. I wouldn’t kick a single one of them out of my barn as a riding horse. I could see a few of his making great amateur horses for LL dressage or HJ.

Look at the horse in front of you, as with anything else there is more variation within the breed than without.

[vxf111]

If I am thinking of the same ones other people are talking about… these particular DHH are NOT going to pass for traditional hunters in anyone’s eyes They may be nice/reasonably athletic horses (from what I’ve seen they seem to have good brains and she’s doing a decent job getting them reasonable miles under saddle) but there is nothing even remotely huntery about any of them. They look like Amish-bred carriage types.

[vxf111]

It’s pretty clear the seller is saying KWPN because that’s viewed as more “attactive” label than DHH. And it’s not technically a lie, they are KWPN registered.

This happens ALL THE TIME with other breeds. “American Warmblood” instead of “draft cross” or “AQHA” when really it’s a half thoroughbred with appendix papers or RPSI when it’s a mismash of randomness and it has RPSI papers Or “oldenberg” or “warmblood” when yes it has GOV papers but the dam was 100% TB approved by the book and not herself a warmblood.

As long as she’s showing the actual papers when prospective buyers inquire, I can’t get too bent out of shape about this. It’s not actually a lie, it’s just using one way of accurately describing the horse that she thinks will most attract buyers. I don’t know how we could claim what she’s doing is wrong unless we also say all the above are also wrong.

[Libby2563]

@vxf111

It’s pretty clear the seller is saying KWPN because that’s viewed as more “attactive” label than DHH. And it’s not technically a lie, they are KWPN registered.

This happens ALL THE TIME with other breeds. “American Warmblood” instead of “draft cross” or “AQHA” when really it’s a half thoroughbred with appendix papers or RPSI when it’s a mismash of randomness and it has RPSI papers Or “oldenberg” or “warmblood” when yes it has GOV papers but the dam was 100% TB approved by the book and not herself a warmblood.

As long as she’s showing the actual papers when prospective buyers inquire, I can’t get too bent out of shape about this. It’s not actually a lie, it’s just using one way of accurately describing the horse that she thinks will most attract buyers. I don’t know how we could claim what she’s doing is wrong unless we also say all the above are also wrong.

Yep, this! And another version of describing these horses as “three-ring prospects” or whatever is every OTTB being described as a “true upper-level prospect.” Some of them are, some of them aren’t. Hopefully if you’re looking, you can tell the difference or ask the opinion of someone who can.

[beowulf]

That’s totally valid. I have no idea who the person or horses are in OPs post.

[Scribbler]

An Oldenberg x approved TB mare and approved and registered as Oldenberg is an Oldenberg legitimately. The WB do not have closed registries. They have built the breeds on selected crosses between TB and carriage or Cavalry horses since the early 20th century.

I do agree that the American and Canadian warm blood registries are no guarantee of particular quality because they just go by papers and don’t have a stringent approval process.

[vxf111]

A DHH is a KWPN legitmately too. It has KWPN papers. The fact that we as slang say “KWPN” when we mean “the riding horse” part of the registry doesn’t make a DHH not legitimately a KWPN. DHH and gelders and riding horses are all KWPN if they have those papers.

[mychestnutvalentine]

I have seen the ads of the DHH/KWPN horses. I don’t believe she is being deceptive. If a person is not familiar with the differences between registry books and are not familiar with how successful 3 ring horses ride, then that’s on them.

Most people familiar with the breed know the disciplines they can really excel in and then where they may not shine as bright… however that is up the the buyer to decide if horse in question is suitable. The seller is using the KWPN status to her advertising advantage. I am guessing a simple video will tell interested buyers all they need to know and then taking a step further, riding the horse in interest.

I have a couple friends with DHH. They do have their own style, strong suits and faults- just like any other horse breed. I have one friend who plans to show her horse in the local hunter circuit, another who events hers and a handful that are successful 1.20m and lower jumpers.

[CanteringCarrot]

Even if the horse is KWPN, the WB riding horse, you still have to look at the horse in front of you. To me, it doesn’t matter what “kind” of KWPN the horse is, it either suits or doesn’t. It’s possible the DHH “version” may be more suitable than the riding horse “version” in some examples.

I understand that some people shop specifically by breed, but again, there are variants even within the same breed and you’ve got to look at the horse in front of you.

Are there really people out there that are just seeing “KWPN” and rushing out to buy the horse because it must be a hunter? Or must be suitable for whatever purpose based on solely breed?

Maybe the seller also thinks if she just says DHH it really narrows the amount of people that will have a look because they stereotype/expect something. Or think it will be a certain way. When in fact some DHH can be suitable for a ridden career. The DHH is technically “KWPN” and it may draw in more views. That’s not wrong. People then view the horse and make a decision based off of the horse in front of them (in person or virtual).

[mvp]

@vxf111

A DHH is a KWPN legitmately too. It has KWPN papers. The fact that we as slang say “KWPN” when we mean “the riding horse” part of the registry doesn’t make a DHH not legitimately a KWPN. DHH and gelders and riding horses are all KWPN if they have those papers.

And… there’s the “Well, technically, it is a KWPN” horse defense.

To do that with the Dutch book(s) in particular is to really misunderstand and underestimate the Dutch as livestock breeders.

[vxf111]

It’s not a technicality. Those are the papers it has. It is a KWPN papered horse. Period. And an AQHA with those papers is an AQHA whether it’s all TB or foundation QH blood or a mix of both. She’s not lying. You might not generally think of DHH as the first thing you think about when you hear “this is a KWPN” but it is no more or less one than a gelders or a riding type.

Seems like a lot of hubris for us to decide what a Dutch horse really is when the Dutch themselves decided they would recognize three types and consider them all part of the KWPN. They didn’t organize them into “best Dutch horses” and “also ran Dutch horses.” They made the choice to give all three types KWPN registration. There may be a more common type but that doesn’t mean that’s the platonic ideal KWPN and all the others are secretly not as good and less deserving of being called KWPN.

[vxf111]

I don’t see people advertising hanos as “blue paper” and “pink paper” and that distinction IS meant to be a measure of quality. So is someone who has a blue paper hano being deceptive by calling it a hano because only pink papers are the best hanos? Only those are the “true” hanos? Of course not. Both papers are hano papers and it’s appropriate to call a horse with those papers a hano.

[beowulf]

@CanteringCarrot

Maybe the seller also thinks if she just says DHH it really narrows the amount of people that will have a look because they stereotype/expect something. Or think it will be a certain way. When in fact some DHH can be suitable for a ridden career. The DHH is technically “KWPN” and it may draw in more views. That’s not wrong. People then view the horse and make a decision based off of the horse in front of them (in person or virtual).

Apropos of playing devil’s advocate above, when I tore my ACL a few years back I put my TB up for free lease. I just wanted him to stay in work, it was a free on-farm lease with no strings attached. Put up a cut and dry snippet about him on Area 1, “free lease 10 y/o TB, BN/N experience, yadda yadda”… Crickets. A few inquiries mostly from tire kickers. I pulled the ad and reformatted it to “BN/N experience horse available for lease” and within a few hours had 100+ likes, tons of comments, and couldn’t keep up with the amount of messages I was getting. A good horse is a good horse but sometimes the public’s perception or breed bias can totally go into play. The funny thing is people were thinking this horse was a WB… nope… totally average TB.

If I saw “DHH” as an ad, I might consider it’s harness bred and not quite my type and therefore would keep looking (even though we all know there are DHHs out there that are lovely riding horses) – but if you said KPWN, you might pull in buyers that otherwise would have kept looking elsewhere.

Even I am guilty of it, and I try to consciously not be as it’s quite common in my breed of choice (TBs).

[SWatson]

I’ve only “met” one Dutch Harness Horse (or “Carriage Horse” as the people at the barn referred to it). He was tall, elegant and mean as hell. He hated women and would only show respect for men. Anyway, the reason he was imported was due to some “lost in translation” issue (or so I’m told) in which the buyers thought they were getting a sweet deal on a KWPN for the hunter ring, and ended up with a gorgeous jerk from the Harness book LOL. Oh well. Should have used a better agent or taken a trip to check the horse out in person. IIRC, the owners didn’t consult the trainer, and I believe they organized the sale themselves. Pretty unfortunate. Brings to mind: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[DMK]

well, there’s a harness horse approved in the US KWPN and then there’s the original KWPN. While there’s saddlebred in both pedigrees, suffice to say the Dutch emphasis appears to be weighted slightly in favor of elasticity first, then hock/knee action*. Over here you can get a lot more saddlebred action, where throughness is a real challenge, but they are flashy movers.

And of course there’s the ADHH, which is just about anything crossed with a KWPN, including your best Sunday cart horse.

Ain’t none of them a hunter though!

(*an international driver did tell me that the old Eastern bloc countries do favor the more saddlebred type movement over the rest of Europe, so there is some market, but overall the type Chester/Misdee/Boyd drive is the gold standard… and yet, #notahunter)

[mika0116]

I am not sure if I am allowed to post a specific farm, mods can remove if they desire.

But https://www.instagram.com/cm.farms/?hl=en markets them honestly as DHH and also has some other Friesian crosses. They market these horses as lower level jumpers/eventers. They do a very interesting job exposing these horses to a variety of items including riding by contained flames and things like skijoring.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLiGs8qnOI2/

I personally don’t love the movement for even classic jumpers, but provided the horse was comfortable, might be a great lower budget option for brave Novice level eventer or a fun hunt horse.

Hunters as I know them… hard no, haha.