KWPN-Harness Book Horses marketed to H/J

[Moneypitt]

Observing certain sellers who are advertising KWPN-(Harness Book) registered horses as being 3 ring prospects. 3 ring being hunters, jumpers and equitation. Certainty, some make reliable jumpers to a certain level but these horses are purposely bred to have exact opposite type of movement wanted for hunters.

No mention of these particular sale horses being Harness horses registry book in the advertising. If someone responds with a question about the horse being a harness horse, the seller simply states no; the horse is KWPN. They advertise on social media and the internet on various horse sale sites.

I guess it is buyer beware? Beware not all sellers are honest? Educate yourself. I feel bad for people especially those new to h, j, e being scammed. I have noticed a few of these horses being resold at a loss after the buyer finds out they were mislead.

Some people have caught on…

KWPN has three distinct registry books. One for dressage and jumper bred, another for harness bred and a third for gelders breeding. The riding horses in the dressage/jumpers being the bloodlines suitable towards h, j, e.

[Caligirl83]

Is this in a particular area of the country?

I have noticed an interesting trend in harness type crosses, more so in the jumper ring or schooling level hunter paces & eventing than hunters or eq since the movement at the trot and canter is not what a hunter judge would reward & is distracting for equitation. Most Friesian/TB or Dutch Trotter crosses or TB/Clydesdales or TB/Percherons I’ve seen make decent lower level jumpers but they won’t hold up at 1.20m+ due to the shape of the shoulder. They are also usually hard to equitate on.

One can only hope buyers do due diligence but sadly that is not always the case. Hope you didn’t get burned @Moneypitt.

[Smiles]

( Most Friesian/TB or Dutch Trotter crosses or TB/Clydesdales or TB/Percherons I’ve seen make decent lower level jumpers but they won’t hold up at 1.20m+ due to the shape of the shoulder. They are also usually hard to equitate on.)

Can’t really comment on the Friesian/tb crosses but many draft/tb crosses can do all three rings. They may not pin in the u.s well because of movement, but for ride ability and being amateur friendly they make wonderful mounts. The market on them has gone up and they are harder to come by. I took my perch/tb to indoors in the a/os hunters so yes they can be hunters.

[Renn_aissance]

I don’t understand the problem. Presumably the buyer is observing the animal’s conformation and way of going. If the buyer deems the animal suitable for the purpose intended then what was misleading?

I haven’t ridden anything registered with the harness side of this studbook but I’ve ridden and been around plenty of harness-bred or crossbred horses that made nice amateur sport horses. Sure, purpose bred horses are just that, but at the end of the day you ride the individual and not the pedigree.

[Moneypitt]

Seems to be one or maybe two people who advertise using different ‘names’ ‘farm names’. Horses have been located in various states including Ohio, Oregon, Arizona and other states. I don’t know who actually owns the horses? They might own most of them?

These horses are mostly registered KWPN Harness book; so the marketer is advertising them as just being KWPN. These are not described as being harness horses in the media advertising.

Think that the KWPN Warmblood Harness book accepts Saddlebred and maybe accepts Standardbred horses? I know there are other harness horse registries in America.

They are not advertising Friesian crosses or Draft crosses. I don’t think KWPN harness or DHH takes those?

Someone could take a young DHH into a Hunter Breeding class and ‘place’ or even ‘win’ because there is only one or less than a handful in the class. But you aren’t fooling anyone. Not the judges. Not anyone who knows how a hunter should look/move which is completely different than how a harness horse is bred to move.

Sad to think buyers ‘new to the sport’ of hunters and jumpers are being duped. These are likely people buying their first Warmblood. There certainly is a learning curve. This is purposeful deception on the sellers part. Saying these horses are bred to be at the top of the sport for hunters or jumpers is purely false advertising. For them it’s about $$$$$. I noticed their prices have gone up…

[Caligirl83]

@Smiles That’s true. Sorry I wasn’t trying to knock draft crosses for the American HJ ring. I realize it could have been read that way. There are some draft crosses that inherit a bit of front end action that would not pin in a rated hunter or eq show. But overall the ammy friendly quality of a draft cross makes up for that.

[Caligirl83]

Blockquote
Someone could take a young DHH into a Hunter Breeding class and ‘place’ or even ‘win’ because there is only one or less than a handful in the class. But you aren’t fooling anyone. Not the judges. Not anyone who knows how a hunter should look/move which is completely different than how a harness horse is bred to move.

Sad to think buyers ‘new to the sport’ of hunters and jumpers are being duped. These are likely people buying their first Warmblood. There certainly is a learning curve. This is purposeful deception on the sellers part. Saying these horses are bred to be at the top of the sport for hunters or jumpers is purely false advertising. For them it’s about $$$$$. I noticed their prices have gone up.

I see. So to clarify, @Moneypitt you are specifically talking about hunter breeding classes? I wouldn’t worry about it. Karma will catch up with sellers or breeders or agents that are misrepresenting their youngstock. But in general most Americans sadly are not that into pedigrees the way they are in other countries, with the exception of the subset of passionate American sporthorse breeders.

Judges will reward what judges reward in the hunter ring.

[Moneypitt]

No, I used that hunter breeding scenario as a hypothetical example. Although they may have done this.

The seller is making a buyer believe that these horses were bred to excel as hunters, equitation and jumpers in higher level competitions.

They do make reliable lower level jumpers.

This is purely about a sellers deception for profit.

No, I know enough not to be duped by this. I also know enough to recognize the fraud. My concern is for others new to H, E, J. I really hate seeing people just starting out being a taken advantage of.

[OnDeck]

I don’t really know if I count this as a scam. If I ask how a horse is bred and they only tell me part of the story that doesn’t change the fact that it has way too much knee action for the hunters and is obviously not suitable. I’ve done this 1000 times when looking at young warmbloods. There are many stallions that can throw both types of movement depending on the mare. If the horse moves like a dressage horse it doesn’t matter if it was purpose bred for hunters, it’s still not suitable. If horse looks every bit the pet of a hunter I similarly don’t really care if the intention was a dressage horse.

[ladyj79]

I wouldn’t say it is a scam, anymore than advertising any other “off breed” is for hunter purposes.

You could say the same of anyone advertising a thoroughbred for much of anything sport these days🤷

But if it will make you feel better, just go post on every Facebook post some hyper aggressive nonsense.

[Moneypitt]

Well looks like they are no longer putting ads on Dream Horse for one.

Does Dream Horse remove ‘reported’ sellers?

**I have not flagged or reported their ads.

The response a professional I know, received when they inquired, was absolutely not forth coming to bloodlines or being harness book; so call it what you will. That professional terms their actions to be what they call a scammer.

[ladyj79]

I mean, I view them as way way less of a scammer than those who imported horses and changed their identities and performance records for years.

Presumably people will ask to see the pedigree of any papered horse they are buying.

Unclear why you are so emotionally invested in this?

[ladyj79]

I now check into coth much less frequently, and when I come back, I remember why.

[mvp]

@Moneypitt

Seems to be one or maybe two people who advertise using different ‘names’ ‘farm names’. Horses have been located in various states including Ohio, Oregon, Arizona and other states. I don’t know who actually owns the horses? They might own most of them?

These horses are mostly registered KWPN Harness book; so the marketer is advertising them as just being KWPN. These are not described as being harness horses in the media advertising.

We are thinking of the same person, I think. She show some pictures of them over fences in jumping chutes.

A agree that

1. These are not going to make good show hunters and will have trots that are hard to sit. After that, I don’t know. There are lots of athletic horses who can truck around the lower jumper divisions.

2. It’s a bummer (that pisses me off inordinately) when someone doesn’t distinguish between KWPN and DHH in the text of the ad. Please don’t make me ask for such basic information. The Dutch are masters of selective livestock breeding and the differences between a riding-type horse they breed and a driving horse will be too large for me to ignore.

Also, when everyone is advertising their Half-Arabian in those groups, please, for the love of God and the elevation of the purpose-bred sport horse, could you just tell me what the other half is? Don’t make me have to take the time to ask.

OK, that’s all. Thanks.

[foursocks]

I think I know who you are talking about, too. I dug into an ad for a KWPN jumper prospect and saw what looked to me like a DHH. I looked at the seller’s other KWPN horses, all of which looked like harness horses, and when one got into the pedigree the DHH was right there, but you had to google.

I wouldn’t have gone any further if I’d been seriously shopping because I don’t like sellers who appear to be hiding things and I also actually care about bloodlines, but lots of people would. These are flashy, pretty horses with that DHH presence.

I am torn between caveat emptor and thinking frauds should be checked, but my cynicism kind of wins, here. In my experience people who want a “WB” without any other qualifications are going to be duped by someone, at some point.

[jvanrens]

@Caligirl83

Blockquote
I see. So to clarify, @Moneypitt you are specifically talking about hunter breeding classes? I wouldn’t worry about it. Karma will catch up with sellers or breeders or agents that are misrepresenting their youngstock. But in general most Americans sadly are not that into pedigrees the way they are in other countries, with the exception of the subset of passionate American sporthorse breeders.

Judges will reward what judges reward in the hunter ring.

Sad that seems to be true for some of th H/J people, but the breed show people definitely are into pedigrees.

[vxf111]

It’s hard for me to believe anyone would look at these horses and think “that would make a good hunter” regardless of how the breed is described

[Highflyer1]

The ones I have seen are pretty obvious, even in posed conformation pictures. The higher head and neck/straighter shoulder/flatter back are all very different from the traditional WB or TB build. There are some very nice DHHs and crosses competing successfully locally in dressage and eventing but they are distinctive in type, movement and jump and you don’t need a great eye to see the difference.

[CanteringCarrot]

There is also some responsibility on the buyer here. If it’s clear the horse isn’t a hunter type, then don’t buy it and expect it to be. If you’re new and unsure, you ask for the opinion of someone experienced in the discipline/industry.

I wouldn’t say it’s a scam, it’s just tapping into this odd American Warmblood market. People think Warmbloods are THE best and are some sort of status symbol. Some are so desperate to own the coveted WB that they will not ask questions if the price is right. This seller saw this spot in the market and is trying to cash in. Is it something I would do or support? No, not really, but it’s not a total scam. If you see this harness bred horse and think that it would make a fine hunter and are satisfied with no further details on breeding, that’s on you. You can certainly buy your luxury pet elsewhere.

I think DHH can be very nice horses, and even for ridden work. Just depends on your goals and (realistic to that horse) expectations.

[Willesdon]

Caveat emptor.