Minor point - saddlebreds are bred to canter and make lovely jumpers although some have a bit of a stag jumping approach at first.
Back to your regularly scheduled arguments…
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From a current website ad for one of these horses:
‘Could go in any discipline, I do believe she will excel in the hunter ring!’
‘Will be the perfect performance hunter for amateurs or kids because of her personality!’
‘I guarantee you at 4 she will be packing a kid around, no problem!’
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I’ve never heard this term before - what does stag jumping approach mean?
I think a stag jump is like a deer jumps. All four feet boing up in the air. People will post omg videos of young horses doing this (not sales videos!).
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Is this the seller whose FB page is shown in the screenshot above? It does sound like the same hardsell language. Or is there another breeder around?
Yes, here’s a quote from her public FB profile:
“To those that doubt the durability of some of the harness lines in the kwpn stud book…if they can stay sound with this type of beating…they will easily stay sound with what we do. These are the ultimate work horses and want to please! I am proud that all my broodmares are kwpn tuigpaard!”
While I agree that some of her sales hype about suitability/talent for various disciplines is overblown, if she’s trying to hide their breeding from anyone who does even a bare minimum of due diligence, she’s really doing a bad job! 
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No, I and Moneypitt are not arguing for the sake of just winning a point.
Rather, and once again, the object and accomplishment of selective breeding is to create functional types, often bred to differ so that each type best accomplishes its intended purpose. The siloed breeding that happens within the AQHA lines and that done by the Dutch are degrees of the same type of selective breeding program.
So it’s the intention and accomplishment of selective breeding that causes folks sort those function-bred horses into distinct books. It’s not the case that this move is unimportant or arbitrary, or that it’s a better policy to sell horses as all AQHA as though there’s no significant variation within the distinct lines bred within that book/breed.
You can disagree with the Dutch’s punctilious parsing of it’s purpose-driven books if you like, but you can only do so if you disagree with the logic of selective breeding that’s behind it. You get to pick a side, but you can’t change the meaning of the sides.
And really, this is a broader epistemological question that’s not too hard to understand. It’s the same issues as Eskimos having 23 words for types of snow to our having, say, 6, and someone else living at the equator having a single word for the cold white stuff. Which way of carving up the world is correct? It depends on your purposes. But if the stakes are high, I suggest you learn the classification that those in the arctic use. I would not, on the other hand, choose the system used by the equatorial person because it was merely more familiar to me.
To not acknowledge the Dutch registry’s books is to disregard the logic and expertise behind them. I think those of us who don’t breed in such an advanced way do that at our peril. And really, there’s not reason not to respect their way of classifying their own varieties of horses that they invented!
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The seller I’m thinking of is in AZ and/or OR, I think. IIRC, there’s another seller similarly selling harness-bred horses as jumping horses (suitable for showing) in PA/OH.
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Again I think we’re talking past each other and that you’re missing the point. The issue is not whether there is value on dividing the KWPN registry the way the Dutch do. The issue is whether it’s misleading/wrong in an ad not to delve into further detail than just simply the registry itself. Just as sellers don’t outline the minutiae of their horses color (nobody lists their horse as “this is a bay with one red gene and one black gene and tests positive for overo though has minimal expression” they just say “bay with one hind sock”) there’s no reason to call it a lie or misleading that a seller honestly discloses the registry generally without delving into further detail. Just as a seller will list AQHA without specifying “appendix” papers. You’re focused on a different question than the one being asked. Which is why there’s no point in discussing it. I’m over here trying to answer “is it misleading to call a gala apple simply an apple” and you’re debating the merits of gala apples versus honeycrisps.
I think the PA/OH seller might be the one I’ve seen ads for. I know for sure she has some presence in PA because some of her stock seemed like Amish bred type. She could have been PA/OH not PA/NJ. I’m the worst at going back to find thing I saw on FB and don’t make a point to comment on/save. I just remember seeing her ads in my feed, I didn’t engage with them. She seemed to be buying and reselling not breeding, unlike the other person screen shotted above.
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Yes.
This seller whose last name can be found in a ‘horses mane trimming kit’, is located there but they appear to be selling horses located elsewhere too? Pretty sure they don’t actually own ‘all’ of these horses they advertise? Honestly I don’t know. Rather may be a sales agent for some horses that are located across and around different areas in the country?
Note: to USEF approved hunter (H) judges. Apparently, you should be judging the professional performance hunter divisions on the ‘personality’ of the horses. Especially, when entered by children and amateurs. Forget your previously held judge guidelines based upon hunter performance criteria. Lol.
Bsckyard breeders and rescues will just say a horse is a QH named Bob.
Reputable breeders and performance horse trainers are usually very specific about describing the lines and the blood and even the registered names give hints as to the horse’s ancestors. You don’t see HUS types on a working ranch or little cutting horses sold as hunters etc.
There is of course the strong possibility that the Kwpn breeder really believes that harness horse breeding makes superior jumpers and eventers. In that case, this is not some deliberate fraud using less valuable breeding stock. It’s a choice and the market will tell in time if these horses have potential.
I am aware of a number of breeders trying to make dressage horses out of various mixes of Freisian, DHH, hsckney, etc crossed with WB, QH, TB, draft.
I’ve seen some horses like this. I watched a Freisian x Saddlebred in a dressage clinic once. It was extremely tall and extremely narrow and had no real dressage talent in terms of balance and bend, very stiff (Saddlebred x QH can however make gorgeous horses).
These all trend towards tall horses with high necks, big tails, flat croups, knee action and natural suspension at the trot. Canter is not their best gait, and they are not particularly flexible or handy. They look like a dressage horse standing still. Moving, they look like a carriage horse.
As a choice for dressage, I would not go there. But the breeders are very proud of their crossbred designer horses and put the mix right up front. So I think this jumper breeder is copying the harness bred dressage horse fad.
It does look like these horses can jump. The knee action gives them scope. Indeed, I know of a Friesian x Canadian WB (dam is OTTB x CWB going back to a great grandsire who was an actual German WB, forget the registry) and looks like a second tier greenbroke Freisian, flat croup, stiff, unbalanced, heavy on the forehand. Anyhow, horse jumped a 4 foot paddock fence from a calm trot and calmly trotted back to the barn. That’s jumping scope!
So the seller appears misguided in saying these horses could make high end American style hunters. But it is possible they will have some scope for jumpers and perhaps eventers if they have a “dressage look” in combination with a good jump.
From what I’ve seen, at the higher levels obviously there isn’t much if any crossover between the hunter type and the jumper/eventer type. Also the speed needed for cross country makes TB blood still desirable there, even if high end jumpers are now more WB. But it’s also possible the breeder is foggy on the distinction, or focusing just on tight knees for hunters.
The hardsell ad language here does put me off a bit. It looks to me like the breeder has a bunch of young stock ftom a fairly new program and nothing competing yet. So rather than see it as a scam, I’d see it as an experiment that will succeed if the horses find buyers and make them competitive. And fail if the horses don’t find buyers, or don’t find competent buyers that will bring out their potential.
I am going to bet that the hardsell language is a hint the horses are not selling, even in our apparently hot horse market. In that case we won’t ever know their true potential.
In any case, while I find the hard sell annoying and don’t want to ride this kind of horse in any discipline, I don’t see anything nefarious here. I see all kinds of unsuitable horses marketed for all kinds of things.
Edited to add: the language about being junior or ammie safe is exactly what you start saying when you have horses to sell that aren’t appealing to pro riders. Being junior or ammie safe is huge. On COTH we are always telling people to put brains over beauty for a first horse. And you might really want to stress this if your video shows a two year old harness horse with flagged tail and high head doing the suspended trot zoomies at liberty. Are these ammie friendly horses? I know draft and QH crosses tend that way. These harness horses look hot.
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I’ve read through this thread three times, and I don’t see deceptive practices by the seller. The horses are KWPN. Loads of people say their horses will be a good hunter when they move like a cart horse. That doesn’t make them deceptive so much as just seriously incorrect, and if we got mad at every incorrect seller out there…eep…we’d be mad at a lot of people.
And just because it’s of the harness studbook doesn’t mean it can’t jump. Often, they can make great jumpers because of the freedom in the shoulder. They don’t generally make great hunters because they don’t have the flatter movement (and they do run hot) but some of them can, just like some saddlebreds come out of the womb “kicking dirt”.
And I’ve just read Scribbler’s reply and she beat me to it 
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I found an old ad from this seller from a few years ago where the horse IS noted as a Dutch Harness Horse, registered KPWN. In more recent ads the horses are just listed as Dutch Warmblood or KWPN. So probably she caught on that you get a lot more interest in a KWPN than a Dutch Harness Horse and changed her listings accordingly.
I have seen other sellers selling DHH as jumpers and eventers and honestly, some of them look fun! If I’m being generous, I think saying an obviously harness-bred horse with a very high headset and knee action is a great hunter prospect is perhaps just indicative of … not understanding hunters …
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I was just listening to this interview with Boyd about DHH…
There’s a wee glimpse of his team in the background, but if you haven’t seen them go, it’s breathtaking and worth paying attention to how far apart the US and EU DHH books are…
I can see the horse he’s selecting succeeding in many disciplines (albeit not a hunter!) But I found this type to be somewhat far from the type found in this country (a lot more vertical action, less through). And his timeline on the change over there just about fits with the import of KWPN dhh stallions in this country. There’s not a lot new about the Europeans selling us their old stock just about the time they are upgrading to a new model!
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There is a breeder in Illinois who advertises her DHH as KWPN out here in CA and I know of someone who bought one. Flashy as all get out, hotter than the face of the sun and whatever talent it had utterly inaccessible due to that hotness. Owner had not figured it out. We cleared the arena when she came in, but she was happy so…?
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I once rode a Gelder and he jumped around like a hunter. Good mover. I almost bought him but I didn’t have the means at the time.
Gelders are harness horses. Are they the same as the Dutch harness horse?
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I think gelders are heavier and DHH are fine harness horses?
The gelders horses are all around types suitable for riding and driving. They are evaluated for WTC and jumping, with a focus on disposition. Harness are evaluated primarily on trot. They are often hot as firecrackers, too. Would much prefer a gelders horse!
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I found the people I was thinking of…
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Those look like some awfully broke young horses. The kind I would buy for my mother to have a lot of fun on doing everything from the pre-adult hunters to getting lost in the woods, or that you want ten of in your school program.
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