[QUOTE=RyTimMick;6572371]
Actually I just checked, 17.3% of the stallions standing at the HV are dressage stallions. Now, some as you say are used for both, but as was stated before, we don’t separate our book.
Tim[/QUOTE]
Hey Tim - would you mind listing some the HV stallions that are considered “dressage stallions”? (Yes, I am being lazy and don’t want to have to look them up.) 
BTW, the WBFSH has Mr. Medicott as the number one event horse in the world in their August rankings. Not Sam, the current WEG Champion, European Champion and Olympic Champion.
I was wrong about the Butt horses skewing the rankings for the Hanoverians. Only one Butt horse is listed and it isn’t either Butt Abraxxas or Butt Leon. Both of the latter went to the Olympics but the listed horse didn’t.
[QUOTE=SamWerner;6572148]
Bayhwk-
I have to ask…why does it upset you so much to have people disagree with you or have a difference of opinion. If you truly and honestly believe something, then you don’t need to prove it to anyone. What is the point of pushing your ideals on others? That is what is great about the USA, we can all do and say as we please!
I just don’t understand why you argue with people. Everyone is going to stick up for their own breed, as they should since they are proud of the horses that come off their farms. Just relax! And I am saying this to be nice…I always see your posts and they seem so angry!
How about everyone just support one another in this harsh world we live in. Wouldn’t that be nice? And argue about something that really matters, like politics 
hehehe[/QUOTE]
Sam…I am not angry about anything. I just get sick and tired of the spreading of mis-information. Look at the posts above…“oops” , “oh they do use several horses” , “oh he didn’t acutally skew the rankings” etc.
I wish SOME people would get the facts straight before they post this garbage.
If it weren’t for folks like me who challenged the mis-information it would hang there uncorrected and those who think they know everything would continue thinking so.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6572442]
Hey Tim - would you mind listing some the HV stallions that are considered “dressage stallions”? (Yes, I am being lazy and don’t want to have to look them up.) :D[/QUOTE]
Just off the top of my head…
Catoo
Dolany
Lorentin
Coriander
Aljano
Loutano
Caretino
Loran
Carabas
Linaro
Casall - has one currently at GP dressage out of a Lord mare
When I said the Butts horses skewed the eventing rankings, I was thinking of a previous ranking list–not the August 2012 one. The previous list was skewed by them. And if one list is skewed, any of them can be. The current CDE ranking is a perfect example of skewing. One breeder; one sire and one dam.
Five horses; six horses. Doesn’t make a whole lot of difference in the grand scheme of things.
It’s an accident because two very good horses skew the rankings terribly. Herr Butt was one man breeding for eventing. He was one of the very best breeders in the world. But his production was very, very small; and it certainly wasn’t representative of the studbook as a whole. His goals seem to have been far different from the goals of both his studbook and the majority of breeders in it
It is almost always the case that a couple of very good horses strongly influence the statistics. That applies to all registries. The breeding goal of any sport horse association is to produce horses for the top of sport, eventing being an olympic equestrian sport. While it may not be popular to breed Hanoverian eventing horses the decision to do so falls well under the breeding goals of that society, how you get the idea that his goals were far different from the society is beyond me! There is a reason there is an FRH after some of the Butts horses.
By dressage stallions i meant the ones people go to in order to breed a dressage horse and the only pictures are of them going under saddle and never over a fence and if they have a performance record it is only in the dressage ring.
I suspect someone breeding to Casall is not looking to get a dressage horse-maybe a good moving jumper but not a dressage horse.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6572070]
And every one of these years you had our HOLSTEINER Cedric stealing points from the Holsteiner Verband. as soon as this wrong was righted , you fell out of the #1 spot.
It makes one wonder how many other horses you have been claiming that don’t belong to you ?
I will repeat it again…you breed 2-4 times as many horses as other studbooks and still you can’t be on top unless you are of course stealing someone else’s points.[/QUOTE]
You are so intense Bayhawk. You sound or feel as if you were the personification of the Holsteiner Verband. Are you?
[quote=bloomingtonfarm;6573374]
and when the facts prove a point many like to deflect the conversation away from the evidence.
Tim
[QUOTE=bloomingtonfarm;6573374]
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6572070]
You are so intense Bayhawk. You sound or feel as if you were the personification of the Holsteiner Verband. Are you?[/QUOTE]
Intense ? Not hardly. I am a Holsteiner Verband member and will defend my breed when someone like the KWPN is laying claim to Holsteiner horses they didn’t breed.
I am also not the one that came on here and put a halo around KWPN horses ,but I am the one that pointed out that they ain’t all that.
We will let the facts just speak for themselves.
Catoo
Dolany
Lorentin
Coriander
Aljano
Loutano
Caretino
Loran
Carabas
Linaro
Casall - has one currently at GP dressage out of a Lord mare
I am not sure I would say all of those listed are what dressage breeders would consider to be “dressage sires”. Some certainly bring good qualities to the table in terms of producing a dressage type but most are considered jumper sires. The Holstein breeders undoubtedly know how to produce top jumpers but if I had to guess I would think most of the dressage horses bred in Holstein were intended as jumpers.
Ok facts … like Cedric has raised the KWPN to be number one from 2004 to 2011? From what I can see even without him the KWPN made it in the top all these years…
You have all the right to be proud of breeding Holsteiner they are great and I have all the right to be proud of breeding KWPN because I have wonderful mares but really, we all sound like a bunch of kids arguing who’s father is stronger, like no my father is stronger than yours etc…
I agree with SamWerner, we have to relax, stick together and help each other instead of fighting on whom is THE BEST.
[QUOTE=bloomingtonfarm;6573673]
Ok facts … like Cedric has raised the KWPN to be number one from 2004 to 2011? From what I can see even without him the KWPN made it in the top all these years…
You have all the right to be proud of breeding Holsteiner they are great and I have all the right to be proud of breeding KWPN because I have wonderful mares but really, we all sound like a bunch of kids arguing who’s father is stronger, like no my father is stronger than yours etc…
I agree with SamWerner, we have to relax, stick together and help each other instead of fighting on whom is THE BEST.[/QUOTE]
Fact : Holsteiner #1 Studbook in the world.
Fact : Holsteiner mare family #1 in the world and they own 12 of the top 25 ranked mare families in the world.
Fact : Last time I checked…out of the top 100 ranked WBSFH sires in the world - 60 were Holsteiner stallions… 60 % of the worlds best sires are Holsteiners.
They produce a pawltry 3,000 + foals a year compared to upwards of 11,000 + by the KWPN.
I think it’s abundantly clear who’s the best.
[QUOTE=Donella;6573672]
Catoo
Dolany
Lorentin
Coriander
Aljano
Loutano
Caretino
Loran
Carabas
Linaro
Casall - has one currently at GP dressage out of a Lord mare
I am not sure I would say all of those listed are what dressage breeders would consider to be “dressage sires”. Some certainly bring good qualities to the table in terms of producing a dressage type but most are considered jumper sires. The Holstein breeders undoubtedly know how to produce top jumpers but if I had to guess I would think most of the dressage horses bred in Holstein were intended as jumpers.[/QUOTE]
That wasn’t the question. Someone asked who are dressage producers in Holstein. There is the list.
Methinks the Gentleman doth protest too much.
Here is the WFBSH list for the top ten jumping sires from 2011. They haven’t done the 2012 list yet.
1 DARCO - 11307
2 BALOUBET DU ROUET - 8565
3 QUICK STAR - 8060
4 CARTHAGO - 7506
5 KANNAN - 7354
6 QUIDAM DE REVEL - 6990
7 HEARTBREAKER - 6674
8 MR. BLUE – 5721
9 NABAB DE RÊVE – 5688
10 CARETINO – 4905
Darco–BWP
Baloubet du Rouet–SF
Quick Star–SF
Carthago–Hol
Kannan KWPN
Quidam de Revel–SF
Heartbreaker–KWPN
Mr. Blue–KWPN
Nabab de Reve–SF
Caretino–Hol
Here’s a link to the top fifty jumping sires with progeny.
http://www.wbfsh.org/files/Jumping_-Sire_ranking-progeny_2011.pdf
And here’s the link for the top 100 jumping sires.
http://www.wbfsh.org/files/Jumping-Sire_ranking-_2011.pdf
You can judge for yourselves how many are Holsteiners.
One assumes that the discussion of #1 studbook is strictly limited to showjumping. It would be interesting to see how much KWPN breeder energy and resources are devoted to distinctly dressage breeding and jumper breeding.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6573732]
They produce a pawltry 3,000 + foals a year compared to upwards of 11,000 + by the KWPN.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6572538]Sam…I am not angry about anything. I just get sick and tired of the spreading of mis-information. Look at the posts above…“oops” , “oh they do use several horses” , “oh he didn’t acutally skew the rankings” etc.
I wish SOME people would get the facts straight before they post this garbage.
If it weren’t for folks like me who challenged the mis-information it would hang there uncorrected and those who think they know everything would continue thinking so.[/QUOTE]
I can’t believe I play in this game but you are right :’‘I wish SOME people would get the facts straight before they post this garbage.’’
Facts:
Out of 9237 foals registered with the KWPN from KWPN, Erkend, TB, Gelders and Harness stallions in 2011 there was
37% dressage and 55% jumping. The stats don’t show how many were born out of Erkend Studbook but lets put the difference between 11,000 born with same proportion, that would make 6,028 foals born in the jumping direction compare to 4070 in dressage.
So from now on you can say :
‘‘They produce a pawltry 3,000 + foals a year compared to upwards of 6000 by the KWPN.’’
Sorry from being so rude, it’s not my type but ‘’ I am not angry about anything. I just get sick and tired of the spreading of mis-information.’’
My 2 cents…
Every registry have strong points, for example (I know that generalizing is questionable and there is always lots of exceptions):
Holsteiner: Power & Scope
KWPN: Beauty & Rideability
SF: Careful & Smart
and…
De Chirico
Almoretto
Riverman
H-Ekwador
Camiros
Rantares
Cacique
Fantomas Farouche
Lou Bega
Tim
Where can we find official stats on Holsteiner Verband horses? I’ve looked on their website and can’t find anything that seems to be comparable to the stats and information on the KWPN website.
Bayhawk, the question was which stallions and what percentage of the HV stallions are “dressage stallions” and “dressage geared”.
Either way, is a dressage bred stallion that is also a competitive dressage horse considered to be a “jumper producer” because one or two of it’s offspring ended up competing in S level jumper competitions?
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