KWPN-NA stallion inspections

[Spectrum]

Even more interesting about Olivier… Before he completed his sport requirements, he was presented for approval to the Oldenburg Verband. Once he was approved there, people were able to get NA/WPN register B papers for their Olivier offspring until he completed his sport requirements.

So there was a registration option within NA/WPN for his foals (and I would assume for other Dutch stallions in NA) prior to completing the sport requirement.

That takes some of the sting out of not having a Dutch licensing option here in the meantime, as there are “workarounds” that can be done in the short time to register the offspring Dutch.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge can explain to me what the disadvantage would be to have a Register B foal from an arrangement like this? I’m assuming there is a disadvantage?

[DownYonder]

Thought of another question -
What kind of reciprocity exists between KWPN and KWPN-NA regarding stallions? If KWPN actually approved a stallion here, would he be considered approved for breeding in the Netherlands? Or would he have to go through a separate licensing/approval process if he was exported there?

[sixpoundfarm]

[QUOTE=Noms;6546480]
My statement is absolutely accurate. I know about the horse you referenced. I know he was recently imported. He will have to meet approvals through sport now. He can not get approvals in the US via the NA 70 day test since the KWPN does not accept the results for their registry.[/QUOTE]

Correct, the KWPN does not recognize the 30 or 70 day testing available here. However, your statement,

As it stands right now, the only option for someone with a US bred KWPN stallion prospect is to either get approval in the US through sport results or send it to NL for approval.
is not correct.

If you could please take a moment to read the the link that Siegi posted, (I’ll paste it in below. )
Paying special note to the Performance Testing section, and the reference to a 21 day performance test.

KWPN Stallion Approval procedures- updated 2010
http://kwpn-na.org/keuring/approval.php

THAT is what is currently being offered to the stallion in Canada, and if the stallion inspectors come from Holland, and give the nod, this horse will be approved and available for both North American and Dutch breeders to use.

There is also the option to contact the KWPN - NA Stallion committee with any questions or concerns. The committee meets regularly to discuss stallion owner, and member concerns. http://kwpn-na.org/stallioncommittee/

The approval link provided is a far better resource than an internet bulletin board, and really has answers to MANY of the questions being asked by DY on behalf of her friend, as well as anyone considering raising a stallion candidate to present to the KWPN.
The jury is there to help and support breeders throughout the process, and offers advice and evaluations to owners of a colt at 2 and 3, so that they can know more of where their horse stands with relation to possible approval/presentation/acceptance. The Jury is always on the lookout! If a promising youngster is seen he is encouraged to come again for the full presentation. In this way the organization supports thoughtfully its members to expose their young colts - plus not spending a ton of money on a colt that may not be suitable. A full report is given to the owner about reasons - pro and con- of continuing the process or not.

Yes, it is frustrating for the NA Breeders - but the bottom line is that the KWPN is adamant that quality and standards be maintained in N. America the same as it is in Europe.

[DownYonder]

Tracy - I saw the bit about the 21 day test, but it wasn’t clear about where and when this test is offered. Is it held every year? And where? Is it organized, managed, and run by KWPN, or does a separate entity have to do the organization/management, etc.? And is there any assurance beforehand that KWPN will acknowledge that specific test?

[sixpoundfarm]

[QUOTE=Spectrum;6546849]
Even more interesting about Olivier… Before he completed his sport requirements, he was presented for approval to the Oldenburg Verband. Once he was approved there, people were able to get NA/WPN register B papers for their Olivier offspring until he completed his sport requirements.

So there was a registration option within NA/WPN for his foals (and I would assume for other Dutch stallions in NA) prior to completing the sport requirement.

That takes some of the sting out of not having a Dutch licensing option here in the meantime, as there are “workarounds” that can be done in the short time to register the offspring Dutch.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge can explain to me what the disadvantage would be to have a Register B foal from an arrangement like this? I’m assuming there is a disadvantage?[/QUOTE]

Register B foals and adults are ineligible to participate in KWPN Keurings, or move up to the Main Studbook (Mares & Stallions).
To oversimplify, it is similar to a foal from a German mare that is not in the Main Mare book. Those foals are recorded and get papers, but options for them to enter the books later on as breeding stock are more limited.
Register A foals ARE eligible to move up to the main studbooks, but must pass some additional testing in order to do so.

[sixpoundfarm]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6546925]
Tracy - I saw the bit about the 21 day test, but it wasn’t clear about where and when this test is offered. Is it held every year? And where? Is it organized, managed, and run by KWPN, or does a separate entity have to do the organization/management, etc.? And is there any assurance beforehand that KWPN will acknowledge that specific test?[/QUOTE]

This is the part of the program that is the work in progress.

To my knowledge, the KWPN-NA Stallion Approval committee works with the stallion owner to find a facility close to where the owner is, as the testing location needs to be independent from the stallion owner.
For this years test, a professional rider will be riding the horse(s), and an selected individual will come from Holland to care for him and to track stable manners, etc. just as if he were at the testing center in Holland.

The process has been arranged by the KWPN , so yes, they will acknowledge this test.

I would speculate that if there are more stallions to evaluate in the future, things may change regarding location, number of riders and grooms, etc. but again- A work in progress. They really are trying to get a process in place.

[Noms]

[QUOTE=sixpoundfarm;6546902]
Correct, the KWPN does not recognize the 30 or 70 day testing available here. However, your statement,
is not correct.

If you could please take a moment to read the the link that Siegi posted, (I’ll paste it in below. )
Paying special note to the Performance Testing section, and the reference to a 21 day performance test.

KWPN Stallion Approval procedures- updated 2010
http://kwpn-na.org/keuring/approval.php

THAT is what is currently being offered to the stallion in Canada, and if the stallion inspectors come from Holland, and give the nod, this horse will be approved and available for both North American and Dutch breeders to use.

There is also the option to contact the KWPN - NA Stallion committee with any questions or concerns. The committee meets regularly to discuss stallion owner, and member concerns. http://kwpn-na.org/stallioncommittee/

The approval link provided is a far better resource than an internet bulletin board, and really has answers to MANY of the questions being asked by DY on behalf of her friend, as well as anyone considering raising a stallion candidate to present to the KWPN.
The jury is there to help and support breeders throughout the process, and offers advice and evaluations to owners of a colt at 2 and 3, so that they can know more of where their horse stands with relation to possible approval/presentation/acceptance. The Jury is always on the lookout! If a promising youngster is seen he is encouraged to come again for the full presentation. In this way the organization supports thoughtfully its members to expose their young colts - plus not spending a ton of money on a colt that may not be suitable. A full report is given to the owner about reasons - pro and con- of continuing the process or not.

Yes, it is frustrating for the NA Breeders - but the bottom line is that the KWPN is adamant that quality and standards be maintained in N. America the same as it is in Europe.[/QUOTE]

I am fully aware of the procedures for licensing and approving KWPN stallions in the US, and for a very good reason.

[StarDoozer]

If a stallion is approved here through a registry in which the stallion is also considered approved in Europe, then the foal can have Register “A” papers when bred to a Dutch mare. Registeries which do not “count” are as follows- per the KWPN-NA website.

“•The International Sporthorse Registry (ISR), Rheinland Pfalz-Saar, Bavarian, Anglo European Sporthorse (AES), Polish Trakehner, Canadian Warmblood, American Warmblood and other registries are not considered to be Erkend studbooks by the KWPN. Foals out of or by horses from these registries may receive Register B papers.”

Olivier got approved Belgian Warmblood and therefore at the time his foals could receive Register “A” papers. When he was approved Oldenburg it wasn’t an accepted registry so only Register “B” there. Now of course he is fully approved so it doesn’t matter. Interesting though that there are other stallions standing here that were approved in Holland and have not gone on to fufill the sport requirements he did. In fact, I think the only other Dutch Grand Prix stallion that’s competed in CDIs and is available fresh is Idocus. Ijsselmeer also competed nationally at Grand Prix.

[carnivalhill]

Navarone competed at Grand Prix and is available fresh.

[ShannonD]

[QUOTE=StarDoozer;6547185]
If a stallion is approved here through a registry in which the stallion is also considered approved in Europe, then the foal can have Register “A” papers when bred to a Dutch mare. Registeries which do not “count” are as follows- per the KWPN-NA website.

“•The International Sporthorse Registry (ISR), Rheinland Pfalz-Saar, Bavarian, Anglo European Sporthorse (AES), Polish Trakehner, Canadian Warmblood, American Warmblood and other registries are not considered to be Erkend studbooks by the KWPN. Foals out of or by horses from these registries may receive Register B papers.”[/QUOTE]

I will add sBs and AHHA to this list too, for reference. AHHA because it does not hold reciprocal status with the Holsteiner Verband.

As a side note, as I am learning whilst going through the process, a stallion who is registered KWPN Foalbook, not yet approved KWPN, but approved by an eligible Erkend book must actually be activated KWPN in order for the resulting foal to receive Register A papers out of a KWPN mare. whew If the stallion is not properly activated, the foal would not even be eligible for Register B papers. So there is more (paperwork, legwork and $$$) added to the process simply because the stallion holds KWPN papers. It is not required to activate a, say, BWP registered & approved stallion with KWPN; I believe it’s only the outside stallion fee that is due.

You’d think it would be easier – two KWPN registered horses producing a KWPN registered foal – but, nope! :sadsmile:

[sfstable]

[QUOTE=sixpoundfarm;6546931]
Register A foals ARE eligible to move up to the main studbooks, but must pass some additional testing in order to do so.[/QUOTE]

Just an additional claification on the Register A foals. They must meet any additional qualification that their sire has not met to move into the main studbooks. If their sire has met all of the qualifications they do not have to meet any additional qualifications and will automatically move into the main studbook at 3 years old.

My stallion Richard, has met all the KWPN requirements for Register A, so his foals out of approved mares do not need to meet any additional requirements. To my knowledge, right now, he is the only activated Erkend stallion that has met all requirements.

He is currently activated as an Erkend stallion because he has not met the 10 day temperament test (simply because he has not been presented for this test). He most certainly would meet this test if presented. I was advised by the KWPN-NA, though, to leave him as an Erkend stallion rather than seek full KWPN approval. What I was told was, due to new rules he would have to repeat all of the requirements he has already met as they now have to be completed in the same year. Financially, it didn’t make any sense to me to go this route so he will stay activated as an Erkend stallion with the KWPN.

[sixpoundfarm]

Some further information on Bosch Blue & the 21 Day test taking place this year.

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2012/09/14/bosch-blue-first-stallion-be-kwpn-performance-tested-north-america

[Janeway]

What does the 5-day Character Evaluation for stallions encompass? I read the link posted and saw this as part of the approval process for Erkand stallions. Are they ridden? Or just handled daily to get a sense of their temperament? And where would this be done? Somewhere like Iron Springs farm where the staff is very familiar with KWPN horses?

[Noms]

The program for getting stallions in the US approved via testing is not clear at all. I have asked those questions in the past, trying to understand the process. I have never gotten answers.

The KWPN-NA will not accept the stallion testing that takes place at Silvercreek Farms because it is a German program. They have been invited to participate and attend the testing in order to approve horses for the KWPN-NA but they will not.

The KWPN-NA needs to get a formal program in place, otherwise they will only have one approved stallion every few years. How about setting up a formal annual test for the Dutch horses?

[siegi_b]

@Noms;6560354

The program for getting stallions in the US approved via testing is not clear at all. I have asked those questions in the past, trying to understand the process. I have never gotten answers.

The KWPN-NA will not accept the stallion testing that takes place at Silvercreek Farms because it is a German program. They have been invited to participate and attend the testing in order to approve horses for the KWPN-NA but they will not.

The KWPN-NA needs to get a formal program in place, otherwise they will only have one approved stallion every few years. How about setting up a formal annual test for the Dutch horses?

(Bolding is mine)
Noms, I have to disagree with your statement regarding the stallion testing at Silvercreek and the KWPN-NA. If you take the time and check what’s required for a Dutch stallion to become approved, you will find that the 30- or 70-day test at Silvercreek doesn’t meet Dutch standards. Having been to approvals in Holland, Germany and having seen the infamous Silvercreek videos I can tell you that there is quite a difference in quality within the various locations.

As a long-time breeder of Dutch horses I appreciate the strictness, thoroughness, and attention to “details” (such as bloodlines) the stallion candidates are subjected to by the approval committee. This continues once the initial approvals have been given and a stallion then has to convince with his offspring that he should continue to be approved. I don’t know of any other European studbook that is that strict… The stallions also have to meet stringent radiographic and semen testing requirements which are then published for everybody to see. The KWPN will on very rare occasion approve a stallion with less than perfect x-rays but with stellar bloodlines, but you will always be aware of the risk you’re taking breeding to him.

I think it’s a fallacy to look for “more stallions approved in the US” when you consider the numbers… In Holland they will start each year with around 800 stallion candidates and by the time they’ve gone through all of their selections and approvals the number is whittled down to maybe 15 - that represents a percentage of less than 2%. The folks in this country get upset when the judges at an inspection “only” approve 3 out of 7 presented… and that is BEFORE the stallion goes to the 30- or 70-day testing.

And when you get right down to it, do we really need more stallions in this country when you consider that the ones we already have get an average of 3 or 4 breedings a year??? Do you really think that would change for the better if we had MORE stallions here?

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=sixpoundfarm;6559671]
Some further information on Bosch Blue & the 21 Day test taking place this year.

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2012/09/14/bosch-blue-first-stallion-be-kwpn-performance-tested-north-america[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link. Interesting info!

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Janeway;6560079]
What does the 5-day Character Evaluation for stallions encompass? I read the link posted and saw this as part of the approval process for Erkand stallions. Are they ridden? Or just handled daily to get a sense of their temperament? And where would this be done? Somewhere like Iron Springs farm where the staff is very familiar with KWPN horses?[/QUOTE]

I am curious about this, too. Is the stallion only observed in the stable for general temperament/character, etc., or is he also observed under saddle for rideability?

And I am guessing, but I assume Florianus did his 5 day test at Iron Spring Farm.

[Noms]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;6560833]
(Bolding is mine)
Noms, I have to disagree with your statement regarding the stallion testing at Silvercreek and the KWPN-NA. If you take the time and check what’s required for a Dutch stallion to become approved, you will find that the 30- or 70-day test at Silvercreek doesn’t meet Dutch standards. Having been to approvals in Holland, Germany and having seen the infamous Silvercreek videos I can tell you that there is quite a difference in quality within the various locations.

As a long-time breeder of Dutch horses I appreciate the strictness, thoroughness, and attention to “details” (such as bloodlines) the stallion candidates are subjected to by the approval committee. This continues once the initial approvals have been given and a stallion then has to convince with his offspring that he should continue to be approved. I don’t know of any other European studbook that is that strict… The stallions also have to meet stringent radiographic and semen testing requirements which are then published for everybody to see. The KWPN will on very rare occasion approve a stallion with less than perfect x-rays but with stellar bloodlines, but you will always be aware of the risk you’re taking breeding to him.

I think it’s a fallacy to look for “more stallions approved in the US” when you consider the numbers… In Holland they will start each year with around 800 stallion candidates and by the time they’ve gone through all of their selections and approvals the number is whittled down to may 15 - that represents a percentage of less than 2%. The folks in this country get upset when the judges at an inspection “only” approve 3 out of 7 presented… and that is BEFORE the stallion goes to the 30- or 70-day testing.

And when you get right down to it, do we really need more stallions in this country when you consider that the ones we already have get an average of 3 or 4 breedings a year??? Do you really think that would change for the better if we had MORE stallions here?[/QUOTE]

Seigi

I have taken the time to read what is required to approve a dutch stallion in the US. I OWN ONE, AN IMPORTED KWPN STALLION .

The KWPN does not accept the Silvercreek test, that is a fact. My point is that the Dutch have been invited to participate in the stallion testing and refused. Thats OK if they want to set up a separate test. THEN DO IT, dont just turn your nose up. Have a formal regular annual test. Dont make SOs guess on how to get an approved sallion. You can certainly read all the questions and confusion that people hare regarding the Dutch stallion approvals in the US.

I have respect for the desire to make the US approvals equivalent to the Dutch and the standards to be the same. I have not ever stated that the process should be inferior. HOWEVER THERE IS NO FORMAL PROCESS AT ALL. As for numbers of KWPN NA stallions I could care less if they never have another approved stallion. And fact is that most if not all US riders and trainers dont care what registry their horse belongs to. We dont have national bias, US riders want the best horse, whether it is Dutch, Hanoverian, Holstein, Oldenburg whatever.

If you take so much pride in the Dutsh registry then it is up to people like you, Dutch breeders, to get a better process. If you care then do something other than coming on here and criticizing the SC test.

I know your thoughts avout Silvercreeks test. I know you dont have any respect for it. But they are the only ones to offer US breeders a test at all.

Netherlands and Germany are separate countries with different breed registries. Actually quite divergent breeding goals. The US is one country establishing sport horse breeding. We dont need reciprocity with the foreign registries honestly.

By separating and making the process difficult for the US , the number of US Dutch stallions will eventually go to zero.
You dont think we need any more approved Dutch stallions in the US, well wait a few years and you will have your wish. The other US registries will carry on.

[Noms]

Chippendale

[Nod_Hill_Farm]

Funny how different people can “hear” different things from the same set of reported facts.

If in lieu of a more formal process centered on a rigidly scheduled and located 70-day test the KWPN is willing to accept a more flexibly scheduled and located (so, shorter and probably closer, which I expect means more convenient and less costly for the SO), that’s a good thing, right? All while maintaining the strict standards that those who use KWPN stallions expect and value.

To get back to the point of the OP, however, it sounds like the goal is to buy a colt in Europe and end up with an approved stallion in the US. That sounds like a tough task in any registry, but more so in the KWPN due to the strictness of the requirements. And that has nothing to do with the 70-day vs 21-day test availability.