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KWPN-NA stallion inspections

Sport Horse Breeding
#41

[quote=Nod Hill Farm;6562142]
Funny how different people can “hear” different things from the same set of reported facts.

If in lieu of a more formal process centered on a rigidly scheduled and located 70-day test the KWPN is willing to accept a more flexibly scheduled and located (so, shorter and probably closer, which I expect means more convenient and less costly for the SO), that’s a good thing, right? All while maintaining the strict standards that those who use KWPN stallions expect and value. "

Add to that the fact that the KWPN-NA website that I referenced in the beginning of this thread does spell out the procedure and any further questions could be answered by calling the office.

I think it’s wonderful that Silver Creek has offered their place for the annual stallion performance testing. What I don’t think is so wonderful is the formula used for the scoring that goes on there, something that was discussed ad nauseum last year.

The KWPN-NA wants each horse judged based on its own merit, not on some outdated formula that assumes x number of horses and is based on historic data (and no longer used in Germany).

If you really want to be “patriotic” when it comes to stallion approvals then I can think of at least two registries that will provide the all-American approach.

#42

At the risk of joining a discussion in which I have no direct knowledge of the subject and making a fool of myself- we have never owned a stallion, much less taken it through the approval process ourselves, and have no intention of doing so now or in future—Let me say that we take a very pragmatic approach to stallion approvals and licencing. We are essentially KWPN breeders. We endeavor to place as many of our foals in that registry as possible for many reasons, ranging from it being where we started- to its high standards- to proximity of inspections- to minimal politics- to good educational material -to jolly parties. That being said, we would NEVER try to get a stallion approved by KWPN in this country! The deck is stacked in favor of the European-based stallions approved in Europe in very noticeable ways. Superb marketeers, the Dutch view their horse industry as a revenue-producing item in the national economy, and allowing stud fees to escape their balance sheet is not what they intend to promote in any way.

That being said, KWPN is a very open studbook, unlike many other European-based registries, and there is great latitude to register foals sired by Erkend studbook stallions out of KWPN mares. The Dutch themselves borrow liberally from other European Studbooks, most noticeably, Holstein, French and,recently, Belgian with great success.

We have had two stallion prospect colts- both sold at a young age. The first - Sakura Hill Campai, a 2010 hunter colt by Cunningham, was registered Continental and has since been gelded. The second, Holyoke S by Contendro I, is a 2012 high level jumper prospect sold to our pro who will keep him entire if he lives up to his potential. He has been registered Selle francais, the registry of his dam.

To return to what I believe underlies the OP’s original question, if the KWPN -approved stallions in NA do not suit, I would look into BWP which maintains an excellent roster of high quality performance sires-mainly jumpers- and use the Registry A option offered by KWPN for foals by Erkend-approved sires. BWP holds credible stallion approvals and the inspectors are competent and professional, as well as being pleasant and approachable. Another good option for breeding your mare is to look into the Holsteiner Verband-approved stallions in this country. Again, the Registry A option is open to you should you choose from among these stallions. Just be sure that the stallion in question has been approved by the German Holsteiner Verband, an Erkend studbook in KWPN eyes.

Best of luck!

#43

You do know that there hasn’t been one single horse that has actually gone through US KWPN NA stallion testing to get approvals dont you? They offered the 21 day test beginning in 2010 I believe. I know there have been plenty of colts through the inspections, has there not been one single of them that is stallion quality?

I love the theory that strictness of the KWPN requirements is the reason that there is not a good reliable annual KWPN NA stallion test here in the US. That makes no sense.

I think Seigi hit this one on the head. The KWPN does not need any new stallions in the US and is probably in no hurry to figure it out.

#44

Just did a quick tally of the 4 top studbooks in the US.

AHHA - 67 approved stallions

OLD - 140 approved stallions

AHA - 107 activated approved stallions

KWPN NA - 22 Approved Jumper/Dressage (2 deceased)
3 Gelders
3 Hunters
7 Erkend
1 Licensed but not approved yet (Bosch Blue)

#45

Noms - I don’t know why you insist on twisting statements around… Nobody ever said that the reason there is "no good (??) reliable annual KWPN-NA stallion test here in the US, is because the requirements are so strict… " :frowning:

Also, this may be hard for you to imagine but there are actually folks who are not interested in pursuing a stallion carrier for their excellent colts. You can add my name to the list of those folks, and I will be only too happy to tell you that the reason I have all of my colts gelded is because you couldn’t pay me to stand a stallion in this country. Been there, done that, and got tired of bleeding money and dealing with breeders that wanted the horse to compete at Grand Prix, be available to be collected at the drop of a hat, and then tried to cheat me out of the stud fee.

And your last statement that you even attribute to me is just plain assinine… no idea how you dreamed that up.

In summary, I believe that there are plenty of stallions available to the discriminate breeder with more appearing on the radar every year. The KWPN-NA has formulated a stallion testing program and is in the process of putting a stallion candidate through it. Talk to the KWPN-NA office if you think you have a possible stallion candidate and LISTEN to the answers.

Good luck!

#46

Seigi B in bold:

Seigi B "And when you get right down to it, do we really need more stallions in this country when you consider that the ones we already have get an average of 3 or 4 breedings a year??? Do you really think that would change for the better if we had MORE stallions here?"This is where i dreamed up my assanine idea that you are clearly not interested and dont think we need more KWPN stallions in the US. Directly from you post.

Seigi B "Also, this may be hard for you to imagine but there are actually folks who are not interested in pursuing a stallion carrier for their excellent colts. You can add my name to the list of those folks, and I will be only too happy to tell you that the reason I have all of my colts gelded is because you couldn’t pay me to stand a stallion in this country. Been there, done that, and got tired of bleeding money and dealing with breeders that wanted the horse to compete at Grand Prix, be available to be collected at the drop of a hat, and then tried to cheat me out of the stud fee. "

And this just confirms it.

#47

[QUOTE=Noms;6562506]
You do know that there hasn’t been one single horse that has actually gone through US KWPN NA stallion testing to get approvals dont you? They offered the 21 day test beginning in 2010 I believe. I know there have been plenty of colts through the inspections, has there not been one single of them that is stallion quality?

I love the theory that strictness of the KWPN requirements is the reason that there is not a good reliable annual KWPN NA stallion test here in the US. That makes no sense.

I think Seigi hit this one on the head. The KWPN does not need any new stallions in the US and is probably in no hurry to figure it out.[/QUOTE]

As someone who has sent a colt through their approval process I can share my own “feelings”. We sent a colt through for Hunter approvals and TBH his qualities /faults aside it was CLEAR that there was not yet a good system in place to evaluate hunter type stallions. Some of the comments were were given like "to quiet " made it obvious that particular sect if you will of the KWPN-NA’s process needed a bit of tweaking over all.

If it were to happen again sadly at this point we’d look to other registers first to present a stallion prospect through. Which in all fairness weighs on my heart a bit because KWPN/NA is our reg of choice. Until a few changes are made or it becomes obvious that the KWPN mother ship has become just as vested in allowing the N/A division to have quality stallions approved on this continent vs always being aimed and encouraged to simply purchase frozen from European stallions.

#48

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;6562938]
As someone who has sent a colt through their approval process I can share my own “feelings”. We sent a colt through for Hunter approvals and TBH his qualities /faults aside it was CLEAR that there was not yet a good system in place to evaluate hunter type stallions. Some of the comments were were given like "to quiet " made it obvious that particular sect if you will of the KWPN-NA’s process needed a bit of tweaking over all.

If it were to happen again sadly at this point we’d look to other registers first to present a stallion prospect through. Which in all fairness weighs on my heart a bit because KWPN/NA is our reg of choice. Until a few changes are made or it becomes obvious that the KWPN mother ship has become just as vested in allowing the N/A division to have quality stallions approved on this continent vs always being aimed and encouraged to simply purchase frozen from European stallions.[/QUOTE]

What does TBH mean?

#49

[QUOTE=Noms;6563194]
What does TBH mean?[/QUOTE]

TBH - To be honest

#50

Noms - one of these days you’ll learn how to spell my first name and that may be the same time you’ll realize that I am not synonymous with the KWPN-NA in my desires and opinions… As they say, hope springs eternal! :slight_smile:

#51

Actually, it seems that SHF many have said it all with this comment:

Superb marketeers, the Dutch view their horse industry as a revenue-producing item in the national economy, and allowing stud fees to escape their balance sheet is not what they intend to promote in any way.

Being strict and having high standards is all well and good, but if they had any intentions of approving stallions in this country, they would have long before now established a path for this to occur. As a friend of mine said, KWPN has been thumbing its nose at NA breeders for years - happy to let folks register their foals as KWPN, but by God, no one in this country will ever breed anything good enough to be a stallion. Nope, you have to send your business to Holland - i.e., buy frozen semen and/or already approved stallions from “the mother country”. And the same breeder believes the Register A thing was added simply to placate NA breeders who were dissatisfied with the lack of stallion choices here and could not use frozen for one reason or another. This person gave up on KWPN a few years back and has taken her business to another registry - and says her buyers don’t care.

At any rate, the person who prompted this thread was searching for a top quality 2 y/o colt in Europe (and has the $$$ to back it up). One of our contacts in Holland has connections to the KWPN stallion jury, and we were pointed to VERY strong stallion candidates. However, given the lack of support from KWPN for approving stallions in this country, we have moved on and are finding equally good prospects in Germany.

#52

(bolding is mine)

Sure sounds like the person you’re quoting hasn’t been associated with the KWPN-NA for quite a while, so just how current can all this be?:confused:

Anyway, leaving for a keuring today - wish me luck! :slight_smile:

#53

^^
This.

#54

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6563926]
Actually, it seems that SHF many have said it all with this comment:

Being strict and having high standards is all well and good, but if they had any intentions of approving stallions in this country, they would have long before now established a path for this to occur. As a friend of mine said, KWPN has been thumbing its nose at NA breeders for years - happy to let folks register their foals as KWPN, but by God, no one in this country will ever breed anything good enough to be a stallion. Nope, you have to send your business to Holland - i.e., buy frozen semen and/or already approved stallions from “the mother country”. And the same breeder believes the Register A thing was added simply to placate NA breeders who were dissatisfied with the lack of stallion choices here and could not use frozen for one reason or another. This person gave up on KWPN a few years back and has taken her business to another registry - and says her buyers don’t care.

At any rate, the person who prompted this thread was searching for a top quality 2 y/o colt in Europe (and has the $$$ to back it up). One of our contacts in Holland has connections to the KWPN stallion jury, and we were pointed to VERY strong stallion candidates. However, given the lack of support from KWPN for approving stallions in this country, we have moved on and are finding equally good prospects in Germany.[/QUOTE]

If they could buy a 2YO “strong stallion candidate” in Holland then the most straightforward path is to leave it there and see if it gets selected this fall. Cheaper by far, the Dutch understand raising colts together, and the owners will have the answer re future “stallion-hood” sooner.

#55

[QUOTE=siegi b.;6563975]
(bolding is mine)

Sure sounds like the person you’re quoting hasn’t been associated with the KWPN-NA for quite a while, so just how current can all this be?:confused:

Anyway, leaving for a keuring today - wish me luck! :)[/QUOTE]

Actually, she left KWPN in 2010 as that was the year she took her foals to a different registry.

And yes, wishing you good luck at the keuring!

#56

[QUOTE=Nod Hill Farm;6564064]
If they could buy a 2YO “strong stallion candidate” in Holland then the most straightforward path is to leave it there and see if it gets selected this fall. Cheaper by far, the Dutch understand raising colts together, and the owners will have the answer re future “stallion-hood” sooner.[/QUOTE]

She is not interested in leaving it in Europe. She wants it here, where she can supervise its care and training and will know everything that happens to it.

#57

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6564100]
She is not interested in leaving it in Europe. She wants it here, where she can supervise its care and training and will know everything that happens to it.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, so a person who I assume doesn’t own a stallion currently, and doesn’t currently manage colts, anticipates buying a colt with reasonable certainty that it will (1) be selected for stallion approval process, (2) be successful at getting actually approved (a year from now), and (3) post-approval, will be able to provide the requisite training and care for future success (and completion of licensing requirements).

Best of luck! I know I wouldn’t undertake that effort.

I’d think buying one in the stallion auction would be a better bet, at least she’ll eliminate the first two landmines. Then she could import it and watch its future.

But the risk on those first two events is certainly far greater than zero.

#58

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6563926]
Actually, it seems that SHF many have said it all with this comment:

Being strict and having high standards is all well and good, but if they had any intentions of approving stallions in this country, they would have long before now established a path for this to occur. As a friend of mine said, KWPN has been thumbing its nose at NA breeders for years - happy to let folks register their foals as KWPN, but by God, no one in this country will ever breed anything good enough to be a stallion. Nope, you have to send your business to Holland - i.e., buy frozen semen and/or already approved stallions from “the mother country”. And the same breeder believes the Register A thing was added simply to placate NA breeders who were dissatisfied with the lack of stallion choices here and could not use frozen for one reason or another. This person gave up on KWPN a few years back and has taken her business to another registry - and says her buyers don’t care.

At any rate, the person who prompted this thread was searching for a top quality 2 y/o colt in Europe (and has the $$$ to back it up). One of our contacts in Holland has connections to the KWPN stallion jury, and we were pointed to VERY strong stallion candidates. However, given the lack of support from KWPN for approving stallions in this country, we have moved on and are finding equally good prospects in Germany.[/QUOTE]

DY ,

I had the same experiences, KWPN thumbing their noses is a great way to put it.

It sounds like your friend has moved on from the Dutch stallions, but in my opinion, if they are that high quality, the US registry that they are approved under would not make any difference to US breedes (most anyways).

However I must say that in my case I really wanted to get approved under the KWPN NA registry because it would mean the Dam in NL would receive predicates and the breeders are good friends of mine. They are trying to create a nice Dam line for the other offspring they have bred. The jury in NL that inspected my stallion had very positive things to say about him. He was top scorer at that particular location and received Ster. He received top scores for trot, canter and jump.

#59

[QUOTE=Nod Hill Farm;6564143]
Hmm, so a person who I assume doesn’t own a stallion currently, and doesn’t currently manage colts, anticipates buying a colt with reasonable certainty that it will (1) be selected for stallion approval process, (2) be successful at getting actually approved (a year from now), and (3) post-approval, will be able to provide the requisite training and care for future success (and completion of licensing requirements).

Best of luck! I know I wouldn’t undertake that effort.

I’d think buying one in the stallion auction would be a better bet, at least she’ll eliminate the first two landmines. Then she could import it and watch its future.

But the risk on those first two events is certainly far greater than zero.[/QUOTE]

She does not currently own a stallion, but has owned them in the past. She has also ridden/competed on stallions.

But the problem with your scenario is that even if she buys a newly licensed KWPN stallion, it still has to meet performance requirements. As discussed, KWPN does not have a reliable track record for testing/approving stallions here, and the buyer will not leave an expensive, high-end horse way across the ocean. She wants it here, where she can keep close tabs on it, and where there isn’t a language barrier issue with the trainers, vets, etc., etc.

#60

[QUOTE=Noms;6564307]
DY ,

I had the same experiences, KWPN thumbing their noses is a great way to put it.

It sounds like your friend has moved on from the Dutch stallions, but in my opinion, if they are that high quality, the US registry that they are approved under would not make any difference to US breedes (most anyways).

However I must say that in my case I really wanted to get approved under the KWPN NA registry because it would mean the Dam in NL would receive predicates and the breeders are good friends of mine. They are trying to create a nice Dam line for the other offspring they have bred. The jury in NL that inspected my stallion had very positive things to say about him. He was top scorer at that particular location and received Ster. He received top scores for trot, canter and jump.[/QUOTE]

Yes, she was primarily interested in a Dutch stallion because there are so few of them available here, but the process of approval here is just so difficult, she is looking elsewhere.

As for the comment about them being approved by other registries - the buyer has strong feelings that if a stallion isn’t good enough to be approved by his birth registry, he isn’t good enough to be a stallion. The upshot is that she has moved on and will probably be attending the Hanoverian, Oldenburg, and Westphalian licensings in the coming months, unless she decides on something beforehand.

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