As for Vitalis - that is a loss for NA breeders, but a nice addition to the PS stallion line-up.
Assuming his frozen semen is good, how is this a loss for NA breeders? It says that his semen was frozen here, but there was definitely no marketing of either the semen, or Vitalis, for that matter. He is spectacular, and I suspect will be more in reach for breeding, handled by PS.
Not everyone has easy access to a Therio/Vet/Specialist that has good success rates with frozen, or a mare that is the perfect candidate for frozen.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;8287020]
What? AH sold someone an unsound horse? Say it ain’t so… :rolleyes:
I had a nagging suspicion Akeem would turn up with a chronic unfixable soundness issue. He was a world class horse when he was on top of his game, and I don’t think AH would have sold him if he thought he would hold up.
I also hope Jorst didn’t pay much for him, or at least had a contingency clause written into that sales contract.[/QUOTE]
Charlotte got a different horse via Andreas to make up for the Akeem debacle. His name is Ray Dance (by Rockwell out of the mother of Van the Man). He’s been in training in Germany with friends of mine but sold this summer to Charlotte.
Vitalis we will probably only see in stallion shows. It’s my understanding he wasn’t sold as a competition horse but as a breeding stallion. Read into this what you will.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;8287027]
As for Vitalis - that is a loss for NA breeders, but a nice addition to the PS stallion line-up.[/QUOTE]
Agreed…wish he had been sold to a US breeder. Even though CJ says “Vitalis is such a great breeding stallion” (?), he’s still unproven as a sire. The PS group has access to large variety of mares, and in a few years they’ll know what type works best for him. It’ll be interesting to see what he consistently produces.
[QUOTE=honeylips;8288164]
Charlotte got a different horse via Andreas to make up for the Akeem debacle. His name is Ray Dance (by Rockwell out of the mother of Van the Man). He’s been in training in Germany with friends of mine but sold this summer to Charlotte. [/QUOTE]
I really had no doubt she would have her bases covered one way or another. She is a sharp businesswoman.
Agreed. Although there have been exceptions, PS tends to not compete his stallions, esp. the dressage stallions - and usually just the ones he owns in partnership with someone else that wants the horse competed.
And what I am reading into it is that Vitalis isn’t sound enough for a competition career. But I am sadly not surprised. As I said earlier, he was a super talent, but he went from doing 3rd Level and the 6 y/o test at age 6, to I-1 with scores breaking 70% at age 7. That’s a lot to ask of a young horse.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8288481]
Agreed…wish he had been sold to a US breeder. Even though CJ says “Vitalis is such a great breeding stallion” (?), he’s still unproven as a sire. The PS group has access to large variety of mares, and in a few years they’ll know what type works best for him. It’ll be interesting to see what he consistently produces.[/QUOTE]
I doubt there are any experienced stallion owners in the U.S. that could have afforded him. And he will get more mares in one week in Germany, than he could have gotten here in a year.
I also hope Jorst didn’t pay much for him, or at least had a contingency clause written into that sales contract
LOL …didn’t pay much for him?? Ya right. Andreas sells everything, he is a horse dealer and horses go unsound ALL THE TIME.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;8288855]
I doubt there are any experienced stallion owners in the U.S. that could have afforded him. [/QUOTE]
Really ? I can think of a few. Perhaps they were offered the opportunity to buy him, and passed.
He’s unproven, and had a brief show career; no record setting price there.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8290068]
Really ? I can think of a few. Perhaps they were offered the opportunity to buy him, and passed.
He’s unproven, and had a brief show career; no record setting price there.[/QUOTE]
He’s not really all that unproven. His oldest foals are winning at mare shows and are headed to the BCs this year. Seems like he got shipped off to America prematurely and now Europe wants him back. 
I’ve always liked Vitalis and am just trying to keep things in perspective.
He wasn’t licensed by KWPN; they passed on him. Who knows, maybe they regret that now. The pretty mare that won the Westphalian show this year is 3 years old. The mare show judges breeding stock, and so success there is just one piece of the puzzle. His oldest offspring are 6 year olds, and out of that pool of young horses (6 and under) come those who are in training and competing, and from that group there are some who have the potential to succeed at the top levels of the sport.
Time will tell. 
Does anyone know why he is listed on Andreas Helgstrand’s website under, “Stallions”?
http://www.helgstranddressage.com/en/stallions/15-hingste/1226-vitalis
My best guess is that Charlotte may have paid for some of one of her new horses in semen.
I saw him last year in September when he was being collected for frozen semen. Awesome temperament - very well mannered and intelligent. He was rehabbing from a suspensory injury at the time. I know he was not shown after that.
Charlotte was never interested in breeding and while she had semen available, it was not the priority that showing was. Vitalis has made some beautiful foals. While his sire Vivaldi has had a recovery in the breeding department since stopping his show career, it is nice to have an excellent son who is also a producer available.
The official story: http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/jorst-sells-kastels-vitalis
There was simply no interest in supporting the US in breeding and developing our own top horses. 
For me, frozen works better than fresh. The country of origin is not an issue. Vitalis will get many more mares in Europe than here because there are so many more mares breeding. I just want to know when I can place my order.
Not surprised about Vitalis…but sad to see him leave the US.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8290925]
… he wasn’t licensed by KWPN; they passed on him. Who knows, maybe they regret that now. The pretty mare that won the Westphalian show this year is 3 years old. The mare show judges breeding stock, and so success there is just one piece of the puzzle. His oldest offspring are 6 year olds, and out of that pool of young horses (6 and under) come those who are in training and competing, and from that group there are some who have the potential to succeed at the top levels of the sport.
Time will tell. :)[/QUOTE]
his oldest offspring are 4 this year.
he bred 255 mares in westfalia in 2010 (officially published by the wetfslaian verband), add x amount of mares in other verbands.
assume according figures in 2011 (not published).
the KWPN did issue a public statement when they rejected the stallion:
quote:
The KWPN society explained to Eurodressage that “Vitalis is a nice dressage horse in our opinion. The standards we demand for a breeding stallion exceed the quality of movement of a horse. In the second phase pedigree plays an important part. Many sons by Vivaldi have been offered to the stallion licensing process and it is expected that many will follow. Vitalis’ blood line is, therefore, not unique. In that case the performance of the stallion - if exceptional - can stimulate a positive verdict. Vitalis produced a good result in several stallion competition shows, but it is our opinion that especially in trot the power of the hindleg is focal point and the stallion has the tendency to go wide behind in the trot extension. Therefore we concluded that Vitalis is a nice dressage horse, which does not excel enough with his pedigree and strength of the hind leg in order to continue to the third phase of the KWPN (licensing process).”
i call that transparency and doubt that they regret it as in fac they do have many of that kind.
in germany, from assumed 600+ breedings in the first two years 48 have been registered as sport horses up until end of 2014 (deadline of the annual FN yearbook).
he is a dominant, perpotent stallion and his stamp is easily recognizable in his offspring:
frame/size
lineage/topline/shape
flashy frontlegs
uphill move
visible dynamics in trott and canter
reliable in killing walk
the latter (to me) is the knock-out criteria as a breeding stallion since we alreday have enough to with damage control in existing genpools (dutch and german) in order to breed complete horses with three existing gaites.
the correlation of flashy frontlegs and reasonable walk IS a negative “1”, we have learend that lesson well before (sandro hit, vivaldi, jazz etc)
re the KWPN comment “… the power of the hindleg is focal point and the stallion has the tendency to go wide behind in the trot extension.” i’ld blame that to his high hocks/“long” hindlegs (term to describe long lasting dynamics/move rather than statue), a feature that usually comes along woth flashy move in front (see SH, vivaldi, jazz etc)
all of the named stallions are comparable for their common pro’s and con’s and there is a reason, certain features do appear in certain correlations - to the good or the bad.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8290068]
Really ? I can think of a few. Perhaps they were offered the opportunity to buy him, and passed.[/QUOTE]
Like who? I don’t stay in touch with the breeding world as much these days as in the past, so I am curious to know what experienced stallion owners are out there with deep enough pockets to purchase a horse like Vitalis.
Fannie Mae - very insightful comments (as usual). Thanks so much!
