Slc what are you talking about?. There are women doing it aswell for your information [edit] Nothing macho about them
Macho has nothing to do with being male, Dutchmike, and the personal insult is rude, and you know it - I hope it makes you feel terribly clever to say something like.
“I think you can hate bullfighting, think it is cruel, dangerous, and barbaric without loosing the ability to admire the horse working.”
That is my point, I am fully capable of separating the two, and do NOT admire the work, I think it’s horrible, it goes against everything I admire and value in working with horses, and I still do not see why in the name of heaven I have to agree with YOU and admire this stuff! You admire it, fine, I don’t.
Fine, take away the bull, take away the bullfighting arena, put the guy in a tail coat and a top hat and put him in a horse show, it would STILL make me want to throw up.
Why do I have to admire it? Because YOU DO? That’s ridiculous. Just because you admire something doesn’t mean I have to!
I always promise myself I’ll stay away from these threads and I just can’t seem to do it.
I own a lusitano and I agree with SLC. I don’t really admire that type of riding and especially because I own a lusitano and know how sensitive he is and how willing and brave he is I feel like it’s taking advantage of that sort of temperament.
I only think showing these kinds of videos further impress upon people that lusitanos are just cow ponies, quick sensitive and fast but tight and not good in the dressage ring. Instead I have seen many videos of lusitanos being trained and shown in the dressage ring that would be a much better representation of what they have to offer to the world of dressage.
They may not have the same suspension as some WBs do but I’ve also seen some WBs that don’t have it either. So of course there is a variety in every breed from horse to horse. I hope that Kyra enjoys her lusitano and let him be a positive influence for other lusitanos in dressage.
And SLC, I have that same thought when people laud this type of riding. If someone showed a video of a pro dressage rider with a horse whose head was that cranked in, it would be carnage.
ETA. I like how she works with this PRE:
http://www.horsehero.com/5201/5214/7954
I’m not good enough to judge what kind of quality but I feel like it’s a better representation of a lusitano in dressage.
Luar was the first Luso to go to the Pan Ams. He has more suspension in one hoof than most horses have in their entire body. He has it ALL. Baroque, suspension, electricfying extensions…
And a son who was in this past Olympics.
Really, when you look at how few Lusos there are on the planet, and that quite a few have made it to Nat’l and Int’l competition, the % 'ain’t bad.
I’m not predjudiced, I like Iberians of any flavour, including Spanish Colonial. I’m smitten with baroque. Period.
It is the horse’s sensitiveness that makes that sort of riding so upsetting, Shiaway, I see that the way you described above.
The video Shiaway chose is a really lovely picture of what the best Lusitano breeders are doing, as well as a gorgeous picture of stretching and putting appropriate basics on a Lusitano. What a wonderful, quiet rider.
That discussion of stretching (on the video) is one of the best I’ve ever seen, I especially loved her comment about ‘I don’t want to ‘fiddle’ him down by using the reins right and left’.
Why do I have to admire it? Because YOU DO? That’s ridiculous. Just because you admire something doesn’t mean I have to!
Actually , I don’t. Just like to point out there are so many different cases of cruelty happening ,even here in the USA and that before you start talking about foreign cultures that first you should clean up your own country. How can I as a dutchman condem bullfighting when we do stuff in Holland that is 10x more cruel. I can’t ,I would be a hypocrite. There seems to be cruelty to animals in every nation ,some intended and some unintendedbut cruel just the same. It is just so much easier to point a finger at others and call them barabaric etc, etc without looking in the mirror
That’s what’s called ‘paralogical thinking’ - thinking outside the bounds of logic.
Consider reading -
http://www.indiauncut.com/iublog/article/38-ways-to-win-an-argument-arthur-schopenhauer
It’s not a serious discussion of how to argue, it’s a very sarcastic jab at all the ridiculous ways people TRY to argue.
One can say, ‘that is cruel’ without implying that one does nothing cruel in one’s own country, and one can consciously not admire something well before everythign is perfect in one’s own country, in fact, it might make one more aware of what’s wrong in one’s own backyard to sit down and think about what someone else is doing and compare it to one’s home area.
just to have the real discussion on going!
At lower level, haven’t you also seen big, long, tall warmbloods rushed into collected movements and ‘framed’? (even at higher level as well…) Some are often rushing in because of their innate capabilities…it is so easy to do lateral work with such horses that it is ‘fun’ to do so, no matter how you do it! Which we all now will never really go far.
Just to point out those name for people to look at : Rafael Soto and his two great andalusians stallions Evento and Invasor.
Ignacio Ramblas and Oleaje another andalusian stallion. And Juan Antonio Jiminez and Guizo, a great Lusitano stallion.
Also note that John Whitaker have been the leader in England in EVENTING with Novilhero another Lusitano.
PRE, Lusi and Lippi are really really good in dressage. But in a different way we are use to see. They are made to have suspension, have good lateral mouvement and are excellent to everything that require collection. Their only usual lack is the extended gaits…and that what are made most of the dressage test today… And most of the German breed are so hard to collect naturally but have lots of extension power and so, are rush into forced frames and really bad collected movements…
There is some breeders now that are looking for the mix between collected and extended horses…Lusi X Trakhener… The best of both world.
Oh! and for Pluvinel: Yes, Lusitanos were bred to have suspension…underneath themselves and suspension is not about going slow… Suspension is a moment of waiting for the next movement, the ‘where to go’, the more you have; the quickest you can be. It is a different way of thinking and as nothing to do with the moment of ‘suspension’ you can have when doing extended gaits… When a horse is bullfigthing (for example) for sure he has to go quick but if he has enough suspension to keep off the ground one or two or three of his legs for one more sec. in order to avoid the bull and then be able to swift all his weight carefully on the outside and then jump back into position…that is suspension. It seems to go fast, and it does, but at the same time it isn’t. Decomposition of the movement that is suspension. And Passage is so natural for them which is the best example of suspension.
alibi…I happen to have a Lusitano out of a top bullfighter’s (now retired) string. When I was at his farm, we had long discussions about his approach to training for the bull ring.
My original post of Merlin was to illustrate the traditional FUNCTION for which the Luso was bred. The Lusitano was was bred as a working horse…some may not like the “work” chosen for the horse, but the fact is that the reason they have good minds and agility is due to the fact the “functionality” was needed for the rider’s safety…not to show off, going pretty in a 20x60 arena presented to a subjectively judged assessment (that, shall we say, could, just perhaps, be polically influenced)…the criteria for Lusitano breeding was functionality in an activity that could result in the rider’s or horse’s death.
My fear is that if the Luso gets too popular the breed will go the same way a lot of working dog breeds have gone…the dogs were bred such that the working qualities were bred out of the dogs and in some cases have produced genetically defective animals…or as has already been mentioned, cross-breds will be produced and the essence of the breed will be lost.
Sorry for those offended by the bullfight, but the history of the Lusitano breed is inextricably joined with the bullring.
Bullfighting was not the only or even the most prominent use, Lusitanos and Andalusians were bred for.
[QUOTE=slc2;3932770]
Bullfighting was not the only or even the most prominent use, Lusitanos and Andalusians were bred for.[/QUOTE]
Please do not confuse the 2 breeds. Mounted bullfights were outlawed in Spain for many centuries after Phillip V declared that “gentlemen” did not do those things.
The Portuguese tradition of the mounted bullfight has remained intact for many centuries. It is called the Art of Marialva…The Marquis of Marialva was the last royal equerry to the king of Portugal. The horses bred for that discipline have been bred for the bullring for many centuries.
The top sires in Portugal are former bullfighting stallions, Neptuno, Opus 72…the horses of Veiga lineage, for which the breeder chose for the bullfighting, are considered the apogee of the exquisitely sensitive horse…
Right, but the two breeds were one breed only about 40 something years ago.
And while lusitanos have been bred to fight bulls I feel that they were also bred to work cattle in general like our QHs. They were also used in dressage many centuries ago. They were not exclusively bred for the bull ring.
And what about dressage is not functional? Maybe I’m totally naive (very possible) but to me dressage is not just going around a ring “looking pretty” as you put it. I don’t think the dog show ring and dressage are comparable at all. The movements done in dressage are done for a reason. In a test you must preform them to get a score but in the school you must use them to achieve better balance or collection or whatever the thing is you are trying to work toward at the moment. Trying to train a horse so that it can more easily carry a rider and respond to his aides serves a definite function for sure.
but in regards to changing the breed: I’m all for making the lusitano more sporty if they can still keep all the wonderful baroque qualities the lusitano has. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a WB.
[QUOTE=Shiaway;3932818]
Right, but the two breeds were one breed only about 40 something years ago.[/QUOTE]
The registries are consequences of politics and turf. The fact is that there are Portuguese breeders and there are Spanish breeders…and some of the main Portugues breeders bred for the bullring…Manuel Veiga being the most prominent in that group.
And while lusitanos have been bred to fight bulls I feel that they were also bred to work cattle in general like our QHs. They were also used in dressage many centuries ago. They were not exclusively bred for the bull ring.
True…and the best went to be proven in the bullring.
And what about dressage is not functional? Maybe I’m totally naive (very possible) but to me dressage is not just going around a ring “looking pretty” as you put it. I don’t think the dog show ring and dressage are comparable at all. The movements done in dressage are done for a reason. In a test you must preform them to get a score but in the school you must use them to achieve better balance or collection or whatever the thing is you are trying to work toward at the moment. Trying to train a horse so that it can more easily carry a rider and respond to his aides serves a definite function for sure.
Hate to rain on this parade, but the fact that there is so much controversy about dressage judging should speak to this.
Jumping has functionality…you clear the jump clean or you don’t. Racing has functionality…you win the race or not…steeplechasing has functionality…clear the hurdles or not…roping has functionality…your horse is quick enough and rider good enough to get the steer…dressage has well, ummm…5 people who gave questionable scores to a rider whose mount balked and was very disobedient.
The proof of the pudding is whether the horse is good enough to keep its rider safe in front of a 2000 lb fighting bull.
but in regards to changing the breed: I’m all for making the lusitano more sporty if they can still keep all the wonderful baroque qualities the lusitano has. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a WB.
I guess I like antiques…and I like the Lusitano as it is…or as you say, “you might as well just buy a WB”…we can definitely agree here.
Pluvinel, sorry but your first quote didn’t mention anything about what you’ve just said, you only spoke about Lusi not being bred for suspension…which we agree isn’t true…and as nothing to do with what you are now talking about…
Only if you were using ‘suspension’ in a pejorative way of endorsing all the WB of the dressage ring.
You seem to be quite against the dressage ring and I understand your point but as all the other sports, dressage is and will stay the basic for all the other ones. To achieve all of those ‘prouesses’ in the bullring your horse must be quick, willing, responding to the infime pressure of the legs and hands…and that is dressage…I wouldn’t go bullfight on a horse that is unable to do shoulder-in nor tempis! For sure, in the show ring it isn’t always like that but, lets just hope for the best by keeping our mind open and try to bring up to that level horses that are different.
And the best way for not loosing the baroque quality of those horses is to train them, breed them and show them intelligently.
There is some breeders now that are looking for the mix between collected and extended horses…Lusi X Trakhener… The best of both world.
A Portuguese prominent breeder Jorge Ortigao Costa actually is trying different mixes between Luso’s and Trakheners. I have no idea what it turned out like because the last time I saw him about 5 or 6 years ago he just started. I do remember I was itching to know what would come out of that. His mixes of TB and Lusitano he did pretty well.
[QUOTE=slc2;3932770]
Bullfighting was not the only or even the most prominent use, Lusitanos and Andalusians were bred for.[/QUOTE]
Nope they were origanally bred for warfare exactly the same with some of the upper level classical dressage movements they were all movements to get out of trouble if you were surrounded by the enemy
but in regards to changing the breed: I’m all for making the lusitano more sporty if they can still keep all the wonderful baroque qualities the lusitano has. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a WB.
They are trying to create a Portuguese Sporthorse a type of WB mix etc. The pure Luso’s will stay pure Luso’s they are much to popular and to noble to go down the drain;)
Since things in the internet have a way of morphing, let me clarify:
My posts have been to highlight the fact that the Lusitano horse was bred for “functionality” in an activity that could result in the rider’s death. Sparring with the bull was a way of preparing for war. During the 800-year long Moorish occupation of the Iberian peninsula, bullfighting was used as a way of tuning up your skills in simulated war games against an agile enemy. This tradition continued after the reconquista.
I know of Lusitano breeders that are known to breed for color such as Ortigao-Costa…those that breed for temperament such as Andrade…and those that specialize in breeding for the bullring.
I am not aware of any Portuguese breeder that breeds for “bling” gaits. If those breeders are now emerging to cater to the marketplace for dressage competition horses, then I’m out of tune with the times…very possible. I was aware of some APSL controversies (er…discussions) on what the breed goals should be.
The fact that certain individual animals in the Lusitano breed do indeed have bling gaits is an accident of genetics, but not of specific breeding goals (to my knowledge). The breeding goals of the long-time, well respected breeders is for functionality. Take a look at the roster of important sires in the Lusitano breed and you will see performance (functional) horses and former champion bullfighting horses…Pincelim, Sultao, Emir, Neptuno, Opus 72. Tuim was former military (CN) and jumping horse, Cofre who sired many bullfighting horses.
Another “functional” use of the Lusitano is in driving. The Belgian driver Felix Brasseur won the 4-in-hand class at the 1996 World Driving Championships with 4 Lusitano stallions from the house of JMM (Mello). Two of those horses were sired by former bullfighting horses (Vidago and Jaquetao).
As far as inferring that I’m “against dressage,” nothing can be further from the truth. My posts have intended to point out the functional roots of the Lusitano breed. Dressage, as it is currently practiced, does not have the functional requirements of the other equestrian disciplines I listed earlier. I think this is a fairly straight-forward statement of fact. Dressage is a subjectively judged sport and it is no secret that there are controversies about judging and many points of view about what to do about it.
Function of…
Probably I just don’t understand your way of using ‘functional’ related to all those disciplines… How can jumping had more ‘function’ than dressage? Dressage is the root of all other discipline…you won’t go far with a really badly trained horse. Dressage show might be ‘corrupted’ but its essence is to achieve the perfect balance between collection and freedom, the harmony within the partnership of a rider and his mount. (yeah, it sounds silly, juvenile and dreamy but still…most of it is written in the FEI dressage rules…)
The function of dressage is obtain the best of your horse, bests gaits, bests figures, best rythm, just best…and it is quite difficult…and it just can’t be less or more functionnal then any other discplines…which are all looking for the same goal in competition, winning and being the best; more than often no matter what it takes.
And it is false to say that Luso or any kind of breeder are not looking to breed for the ‘bling’ (lets say it twice) ‘bling’ movements. A horse that don’t have such abilities of ‘showing off’ and don’t have such ‘sparkling’ gaits won’t usually go far in his career even at bullfighter. The good bullfighting horses were the one with incredible amount of presence and tremendous gaits and they were finely trained…removing the bull, so you would get a bit of what show dressage should look like. And from what I know about PRE, breeders wouldn’t care much about the mares because they were quite ugly and wouldn’t move that good…so that is why they were only using stallions…
