Lainey and Frodo Thread

[Ajierene]

OK, so the points only mean year end type awards. But you need to have certain total scores in a specific amount of shows to move up?

Yeah, I agree that the rules need to be overhauled - you shouldn’t just be able to jump on a horse and do advanced. Jumping 3 ft in a hunter or jumper ring is completely different than a cross country course. I spend a good deal of time on my mare’s stamina to make it around the courses, as well as work on dressage and gymnastic jumping and the like. I only do Novice, so it isn’t like she needs to be a power player, but I remember my hunter days and being able to turn a horse out and do well after riding a half an hour a day in a riding ring.

I don’t know that Laine pushed herself to hard to try to make the team, but that is something else I mentioned in my e-mail. There should be an age limit for the Olympics and an age/tenure limit for riding more than one horse at shows. A show like Rolex is tough. The only other people that rode more than one horse Rolex were seasoned riders. Age shouldn’t be such a factor, but tenure. I say this because if you put an age limit, say 35, on the rules, someone can come from the hunter world, spend a short time riding, make it to Rolex, ride two horses at Rolex not clearly understanding the demands of Rolex.

Something like competed successfully at Rolex for X number of years. Similar rules could be put into effect for other shows as well. I don’t think Laine was necessarily not understanding Rolex, but kids and young adults think they are more often more invincible than they are. People that excel in one sport sometimes think they can excel in others.

Frodo was the second horse on course with Laine (I double checked the tables, as far as I can tell and from what I remember, she did ride Mazetto first:
http://www.rk3de.org/timetable_cc.php). While all the factors cannot be clearly defined, I do think riding two horses at Rolex contributed to rider fatigue and increased the likelihood of misjudgement.

FrittSkritt - Thank you for that update on when Frodo came to the US. Is that when Laine bought him or did someone else import him?

[Janet]

@Ajierene;3243154

Asterix - could you take that greenbean and run him in Training?

I see a flaw in the rules as you describe them - someone who pleasure rides can just hop on a horse and do Training.

This is something I mentioned to the USEA in my safety e-mail. Everything recognized should have a points system. Someone who has not done Novice, should not be able to do training or prelim. Someone who has not competed in a year should not be asked to go back and compete at Prelim if they want points.

If they and their horse has not competed, or has done horrible at a level, why not allow them to drop a level or two?

I was talking to someone who was doing unrecognized shows at Novice. She has a horse she went through Prelim with, then broke her leg in a non-horse related accident and had to take the next season off. Basically USEA is penalizing her for wanting to come back slowly. Yes, her horse is prelim - but she is not at that level anymore. She does not feel as secure in her seat and may not be riding him as well to show well in dressage (I wasn’t able to watch her test to even begin to judge).

It is this kind of ruling that may be part of the problem - people that need to take the time off are indirectly being encouraged not to by mixing these rules with their competitive nature and possibly pressure from peers to get points.

This post seems to be based on a complete misunderstanding of the rules. There is absolutely NOTHING preventing a horse and rider who won at Prelim this weekend form competing at (Open) Beginner Novice next weekend- for WHATEVER reason - and getting BN points for it.

[pwynnnorman]

While all the factors cannot be clearly defined, I do think riding two horses at Rolex contributed to rider fatigue and increased the likelihood of misjudgement.

Oh, hardly. The five or so riders who had two horses were on course @ five hours apart. What wimps they’d be if they couldn’t recover with that much time in between!

[Janet]

@Highflyer;3243265

I thinnk maybe you’re misunderstanding “points.” If I understand correctly, for example, a HORSE who has competed at, say, the ADVANCED level in 2008 receives a certain number of points for each of his Advanced placings (i.e. 1st-6th). All that does is give him points toward the ADVANCED HORSE OF THE YEAR award. Nothing else. If he does more than 2 Advanced events in 2008, he will only be eligible to get an end of the year award at the ADVANCED Level, even if he also did three Intermediate events. That’s all points mean.

Not quite true. The leaderboard for “Horse of the Year” (as well as “Mare of the Year”) accumulates points from Prelim, Intermediate, and Advanced.

This is distinct from “Advanced Horse of the Year” which only accumulates points earned at Advanced.

Sometimes, but by no means always, the “Horse of the Year” is the same as “Advanced Horse of the Year”.

[asterix]

well, we do have SOME rules – you can’t just jump on a horse and do Advanced (training, yes, but not advanced). If you left the hunter ring and wanted to go to Rolex, you would have to start at Training, complete 4 of those with no xc penalties, then go prelim, qualify for and complete a * star, and so on and so on. It would take you several years no matter how hard you tried.

And as for Training being without any qualifications, I do know that everything below prelim is a recent “add on” – but we need to accept that the sport is different now. The vast majority of new eventers need time at a lower level to develop safe xc skills – they have not fox hunted or yahooed across the back 40 bareback as in days of yore (i only mean this a little bit sardonically – I too yahooed around over hill and dale bareback when I was a kid, but that is not the reality for many new eventers now). I would certainly assume if we instituted more move-up qualifications we would take into account the many pros who begin their horses at novice or even training. I am not so sure we need to allow them to begin at Prelim. That seems a bit of a stretch for me, but I am not a pro.

[flyingchange]

ROFLMAO

[flyingchange]

http://www.useventing.com/resources/files/docs/2008USEFRulesEventing2.18.08.pdf

You have two choices. You can either go to this link and print out the rulebook and read it.

or

You can not read it and keep posting here. Which is fine because you certainly are entertaining.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Carol Ames;3243400

Ajierene, back in the 70ies when eventing was experiencing a surge after the WM at Burglhley; It was said that an experienced foxhunter should be able to take a hunt horse, and be able to complete a horse trial ata specified revel; unfortunately,i don’t remember which level,probably training;Denny, do you recal lHow ?How much specialized traing is necessary?

It was prelim (or novice in the UK). A solid days hunting (in the first flight) in good country (like the hunt Country for Cheshire here in Chester Co. Pa) was on par to a CCI*. When I first started eventing, I got ready for training level by popping over hunting coops. Some the their 4 railers are considerably harder than anything you would see eventing…and many in the field were former MD Hunt cup horses for that reason.

[Janet]

The link you posted does not inclued all the current rules changes. If you want to see the CURRENT rules you need to go to
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2008/12-EV.pdf
This includes the rule changes made last week.

@flyingchange;3243750

http://www.useventing.com/resources/files/docs/2008USEFRulesEventing2.18.08.pdf

You have two choices. You can either go to this link and print out the rulebook and read it.

or

You can not read it and keep posting here. Which is fine because you certainly are entertaining.

[bosox]

and many in the field were former MD Hunt cup horses for that reason

Do you mean chasers became event horses or hunt horses? Just wondering b/c on a very recent thread many said that they’d take an OTTB before a chaser to switch into an eventer.

Many did not think it was a project they’d enjoy taking a chaser and making an eventer out of the horse.

[Ajierene]

Yeah, there are a lot of differences between the ‘golden years’ of eventing and now.

People the evented fox hunted more. Both through room to fox hunt and being from a fox hunting culture. I do not know any eventers now, save my instructor, that have ever fox hunted on a regular basis.

With the disappearance of land to hunt on, as well as the changing culture, people don’t have horses with the same kind of stamina to enter the event world at the Prelim level like those fox hunting horses did.

I agree with you asterix. I did hunters through my youth and did not come to eventing until I started riding my mare 7 years ago. I have never fox hunted. I have been eventing for 6 years. Other people that move from the hunter or jumper world from the event world could easily not have a clear understanding of the stamina it takes to complete the cross country phase. This is why I think there should be more controls for moving up. I’m not thinking people should have to place first at every novice show before moving up, earn enough points to show that they pin in the ribbons, an indicator that they are capable of performing at that level well enough that the challenge of the next level would not be to dangerous.

How many years should it take to get from Prelim to Rolex? To me it seems that starting a horse in eventing to getting to rolex should take 6 years or so, it took Laine and Frodo 3. Am I just being overly cautious about moving up?

[DustInTime04]

[QUOTE=Ajierene;3243864]

How many years should it take to get from Prelim to Rolex? To me it seems that starting a horse in eventing to getting to rolex should take 6 years or so, it took Laine and Frodo 3. Am I just being overly cautious about moving up?[/QUOTE]

I was actually there to see Laine and Frodo receive the NAYRC ** individual silver medal, in 2005. So she did a ** three years ago, which would mean it took her longer than 3 years to get to Rolex 2008 with him.

And to address a previous post “The only other people that rode more than one horse Rolex were seasoned riders” Laine obviously has the experience when she made it to Rolex on the three different horses, several times. Not even that, but I even remember when I was looking for my first horse, my mom contacted her mother and Laine had been riding many of those horses for sale at about the training/prelim level… and that was about 6 years ago. She had plenty of experience to be at Rolex, just as much as any of the other riders with multiple horses.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@bosox;3243852

Do you mean chasers became event horses or hunt horses? Just wondering b/c on a very recent thread many said that they’d take an OTTB before a chaser to switch into an eventer.

Many did not think it was a project they’d enjoy taking a chaser and making an eventer out of the horse.

Many of the chasers become hunt horses…but really they often have been hunted all along. Many young chasers are taken out hunting as part of their training. It is extremely common in this area. The field master for the Cheshire hunt is Bruce Miller…a very well know and successful race jump trainer.

It is also not that uncommon to do with event horses. My young 4 year old will probably go out hound exercising a few times a week this summer and perhaps out cubbing a bit. Often you start them out ponying off a more experienced horse.

And for what its worth…I’ve known many very good event horses that raced over fences. I wouldn’t have turned down any of them. I also remember when Von Csadek was doing the show jumpers…after a very successful career racing over fences. It is all in the individual horse.

[asterix]

@Ajierene;3243864

\ I’m not thinking people should have to place first at every novice show before moving up, earn enough points to show that they pin in the ribbons, an indicator that they are capable of performing at that level well enough that the challenge of the next level would not be to dangerous.

We’ve been talking about this move-up issue for quite a while on this board (well before and very separate from the recent rash of accidents)…but as I said a few posts ago, pinning in the ribbons really is not a good indicator.

I’ve been to events where that meant that after the first 5 riders, the heavens opened up and lots of people scratched…
My favorite was the one in which fewer riders finished than they had ribbons – I had those two stops and “pinned” – it was my worst xc ever.

I think there are only two ways to do this, and one of them is both unpopular and not feasible logistically:

1. Overhaul our move up qualifying scores system but keep the concept – no jump penalties, limited time faults, and a certain dressage score count as qualifying.
2. In addition to the above, have some subjective review of your cross country skills, by video, by an official on course, etc. This, naturally, is the “unpopular and not feasible” one.

[Ajierene]

DustInTime04 - thanks for that. That is what I was looking for with trying to understand Laine’s accident. When I did finally find her records, Frodo’s records went back only to 2005. I did not see any other pages or indication that she competed him before then. I also did not see mention of competing him in her blog. Competing him may not have just been noteworthy enough at the time, so I wasn’t sure.

So she did compete him and work him up the levels in a longer time frame. Your personal experiences also bring a better understanding of the person behind the star, so to speak. I never got the impression that she was mean, but was wondering how impulsive she was and what that meant for the USEA rules. While people should be able to govern themselves (and their children), organizations do need to put rules in effect to deter the very impulsive daredevil types to protect the rest of the eventing world.

While Laine is seasoned, she is not nearly as seasoned as someone like Phil Dutton. There are decades of difference there. Whether or not she had the experience to ride more than one horse at Rolex is a matter of opinion and not really one that can be solved here. You and I are seeing this from different perspectives and you are completely entitled to your side, I am not saying I disagree with you, just would like more ‘evidence’. I’m not sure you can get evidence for something like this, though.

Asterix - I see what you are saying about just a point system. First place because everyone else fell off doesn’t mean your good, just a bit better than everyone else that day - you managed to stay on.

A penalty point maximum with attachments to points at cross country and stadium might be good. I would not say that a Novice to Training needs to have never had a refusal, but limited to one or two during the year. If you are placing this as a horse’s first year out, their first show or two, they are likely to spook at something strange or get distracted or something.

I can understand the unpopularity of the second one! One of the things I love about eventing over hunters is how much more objective it is. But if you had a panel of judges qualified to judge certain levels view the tape individually and composite the score, the pill might be easier to swallow. I am thinking creating it similar to higher level dressage where more than one judge is used and the score is averaged. I am also thinking there should be a sheet, similar to a dressage test sheet, that the judges use.

[Janet]

@Ajierene;3243864

How many years should it take to get from Prelim to Rolex? To me it seems that starting a horse in eventing to getting to rolex should take 6 years or so, it took Laine and Frodo 3. Am I just being overly cautious about moving up?

There is a BIG difference in how long it takes the RIDER to move up, an dhow long it takes the HORSE- being ridden by a rider who has already done that level.

[Ajierene]

Janet, can you expand on the difference?

Does it matter if the rider is coming from being strong in another discipline or just starting out?

Does it matter if the horse is coming from being strong in another discipline or just starting out?

Does the discipline the horse or rider is coming from matter?

I do not mean any offense, I really just want to understand your view.

[Janet]

Even with a good trainer, if a horse and rider are going Intermediate for the first time, it is going to take a while for the rider to really KNOW how it is “supposed to be”, and be able to really “guide” the horse through the course.

A rider who has been riding at Intermediate for decades has a much better knowledge ot how it is “suoposed to be”, and will be able to guide the horse much more effectively, and in less time.

Of course it makes a difference how accomplished the horse and rider are in other disciplines, and which discipline. But even if horse and rider are highly accomplished in another discipline, it is going to take longer to progress if the rider is learning too.

Phillip Dutton can bring a horse up from Novice to Advanced FAR more quickly than a less accomplished rider/trainer.

[nirvana002]

[QUOTE=Ajierene;3243967]
DustInTime04 - thanks for that. That is what I was looking for with trying to understand Laine’s accident. When I did finally find her records, Frodo’s records went back only to 2005. I did not see any other pages or indication that she competed him before then. I also did not see mention of competing him in her blog. Competing him may not have just been noteworthy enough at the time, so I wasn’t sure.

So she did compete him and work him up the levels in a longer time frame. Your personal experiences also bring a better understanding of the person behind the star, so to speak. I never got the impression that she was mean, but was wondering how impulsive she was and what that meant for the USEA rules. While people should be able to govern themselves (and their children), organizations do need to put rules in effect to deter the very impulsive daredevil types to protect the rest of the eventing world.

While Laine is seasoned, she is not nearly as seasoned as someone like Phil Dutton. There are decades of difference there. Whether or not she had the experience to ride more than one horse at Rolex is a matter of opinion and not really one that can be solved here. You and I are seeing this from different perspectives and you are completely entitled to your side, I am not saying I disagree with you, just would like more ‘evidence’. I’m not sure you can get evidence for something like this, though.

Asterix - I see what you are saying about just a point system. First place because everyone else fell off doesn’t mean your good, just a bit better than everyone else that day - you managed to stay on.

A penalty point maximum with attachments to points at cross country and stadium might be good. I would not say that a Novice to Training needs to have never had a refusal, but limited to one or two during the year. If you are placing this as a horse’s first year out, their first show or two, they are likely to spook at something strange or get distracted or something.

I can understand the unpopularity of the second one! One of the things I love about eventing over hunters is how much more objective it is. But if you had a panel of judges qualified to judge certain levels view the tape individually and composite the score, the pill might be easier to swallow. I am thinking creating it similar to higher level dressage where more than one judge is used and the score is averaged. I am also thinking there should be a sheet, similar to a dressage test sheet, that the judges use.[/QUOTE]

the Usea records only go back so far. They are working on their past records.

[Janet]

If you go through the main USEA pages, you only get results back to 2005. But if you go through the dashboard, they go back further. The records for Frodo Baggins through the dashboard go back to 2003.