Frodo was about three years old when actual photography began on the films. I don’t know if the horse had the name before that time but it has been widely stated before (though not established as fact with records as far as I know) that the horse got the name after it was selected for use in the films.
Ajierene, you are still saying things that are incorrect. Darren’s horse did not die, did not have any physical problem that caused the fall.
I don’t know what you are talking about as far as points and competing above the level? You can not compete unless you are qualified from Prelim up, period, you can not compete and elect to not get any “points”.
I appreciate that this is a topic that needs discussion, but yoiu are clouding things with your incorrect statements.
Yes, to ArtilleryHill and asterix - that ‘internal weakening’ was in reference to Jamie at Rolex 2007, not Frodo.
Shea’smom - when I read the initially articles, I remember reading that his horse did die and the fall was the result of a pulmonary embolism. I cannot find it now, so it is either the initial statements were not correct or my lack of research skills are cropping up again (about the embolism, not the death-that was obviously wrong if it was in another article). A pulmonary Embolism is not necessarily fatal, but it can weaken a horse or person during athletic activity - similar to being dehydrated, in that there can be weakness, dizziness, lack of proper muscle control. Since both Darren’s horse and The Quiet Man were showing signs of weakness before the jump that the accident occured, it could have been this.
The fact that the horse did not break any bones does not mean he did not suffer an embolism - he could also have been dehydrated or just to tired.
I would like to see if the results of the necropsy for Jamie and The Quiet Man are public and will start searching.
As far as points and competing, I am talking about someone doing Prelim and then moving to another horse and doing say Novice. Then, not getting points because the rider has competed successfully at a higher level, even though the horse has not. So rider - did prelim. horse - did nothing. They compete at Novice and rider is ineligible for points because the rider is ‘to good’ to be doing Novice again, the rider is ‘above the level’ of the event they are competing in. My worry is someone moving a horse up quicker than they should to be able to earn points again. Was that more clear? Did I read the rule wrong?
Frodo was in the movies and at the premier to at least one, if not all the movies. Someone had a valid point that all the movies were filmed at once and released separately. The article I read just said ‘Lord of the Rings’ and did not differentiate which movie/s or premiers he was in.
Frodo was only in the first LOTR movie. She’s been riding him for at least 8 years. He did not just come out of the field and into Rolex–where do you people get this stuff from? He was her JR/YR’s mount when she won individual silver back in 2005 in the 2*.
Laine did not run Rolex in 2007. She broke her neck at Rolex 2005 with Jamie. Completed Rolex 2006 on Jamie as well. Jamie died at Jersey Fresh, not Rolex.
Note: this is NOT about Laine and Frodo, whose record I have not seen (and useventing is a bit wonky today as they seem to be updating it)…
I don’t know about the FEI system of points since I’ve never ridden at that level, but it is true that our current qualifications system for horse trials leaves a lot to be desired. I hope (and think) that this is on the table at the safety summit.
I’ve mentioned this before, because I think it is so wrong right now, so please forgive me if I seem to be repeating myself.
I have ridden through Prelim, have a husband who is a new/recreational rider (as in we go jump logs on the trail and he’s perfectly stable as a passenger, can whoa when he needs to, that sort of thing), and both a prelim horse and a greenbean who has never competed at all.
It is perfectly legal for ME to take that greenbean and run him Prelim this weekend.
It is perfectly legal for my husband to take either my prelim horse, OR for that matter the greenbean, and run Training this weekend.
I do think this needs to change. This is not really relevant for the FEI-level accidents we have been discussing, but since you brought up this topic generally, I figured it was fair game.
:uhoh::dead:
I think I need to take some LSD to give me a decent shot at following this thread.
Asterix - could you take that greenbean and run him in Training?
I see a flaw in the rules as you describe them - someone who pleasure rides can just hop on a horse and do Training.
This is something I mentioned to the USEA in my safety e-mail. Everything recognized should have a points system. Someone who has not done Novice, should not be able to do training or prelim. Someone who has not competed in a year should not be asked to go back and compete at Prelim if they want points.
If they and their horse has not competed, or has done horrible at a level, why not allow them to drop a level or two?
I was talking to someone who was doing unrecognized shows at Novice. She has a horse she went through Prelim with, then broke her leg in a non-horse related accident and had to take the next season off. Basically USEA is penalizing her for wanting to come back slowly. Yes, her horse is prelim - but she is not at that level anymore. She does not feel as secure in her seat and may not be riding him as well to show well in dressage (I wasn’t able to watch her test to even begin to judge).
It is this kind of ruling that may be part of the problem - people that need to take the time off are indirectly being encouraged not to by mixing these rules with their competitive nature and possibly pressure from peers to get points.
Seeking knowledge is one thing.
Spouting highly inaccruate information on sensitive matters when a little time and effort would produce correct information is entirely another.
Get your facts straight before you post them, or confine your post to questions, and you’ll get a friendlier response.
[QUOTE=Ajierene;3243154]
Asterix - could you take that greenbean and run him in Training?
…
If they and their horse has not competed, or has done horrible at a level, why not allow them to drop a level or two?
I was talking to someone who was doing unrecognized shows at Novice. She has a horse she went through Prelim with, then broke her leg in a non-horse related accident and had to take the next season off. Basically USEA is penalizing her for wanting to come back slowly. [/QUOTE]
We are getting a bit off track here, so I’m sorry for contributing to that…but
-
Yes, i can run my horse training as his first horse trial – as I said, my husband, who is a total newbie, could take him training.
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I am not sure I understand your other points I quoted here – you can absolutely drop back to any level you feel you need to – I could run my Prelim horse BN this weekend as long as I sign up for “Open”. No one is “penalized” for this. You can go as slowly as you want, bounce between levels, whatever.
If you are talking about racking up points – I do not think you can get points until you go prelim anyway (hmm, not sure on this – anyone care to correct me? I don’t really pay attention to that stuff anyway) – but “points” are a measure of one’s competitive progress – if you have to or want to drop back several levels you are not really making progress as such (even if for a good reason) and shouldn’t be allowed to squash the folks who are genuinely at that level…
so I can run my Prelim horse in open bn – maybe we had a confidence-shaking go, or he has suddenly decided he hates going into water, or, or, or…but I don’t think that I should be able to get “points” in BN for doing that.
Am I missing the point? I am not sure I understood you…
adierene- I never saw any references to Darren’s horse having pulmonary issues or looking weak before the fall and I suspect you are confusing different incidents. Separate and apart from Darren’s horse, two other horses had hemorrhages at that event and died. I also never saw any news reports that indicated the Quiet Man had any injuries other than his shoulder injury- does not mean there were not such reports but I read most of them and never saw one.
As someone said, St James Place did have a necropsy and Laine’s fall with Jamie at Rolex was not 2007 but an earlier year and I am pretty sure she completed it with him in 2007.
We all have strong opinions on this but it would be really helpful if people had their facts (or at least the ones that are easily and publicly available) before putting potentially inflammatory ones out there - you may have intended to post merely as an information seeker but that is not how your initial posts came across
of course now that I have gotten self-righteous someone will probably point out something I got wrong :lol:
Asterix - I think you are kind of getting the point…
I am thinking more in terms of a few factors:
You are doing well at a level, move up and just do horrible (tons of elminations, horrible scores, etc.). You realize you moved up to quickly. What I stated in my e-mail to the USEA is that if you recieved less than a certain amount of points in a level in a year, you should be able to compete competitively at the level lower - this would include getting points. So, if you suddenly start to get eliminated at the water jump every jump because your horse has decided that Nessy is out to get him - why not be able to step down a level and still be able to earn points?
And what of the horses and people that are injured (not necessarily eventing related)? Should they be not allowed to earn points at lower shows after having to take a season or half a season off?
You can get points for something - I remember a beginner novice person talking about enough points to go to somewhere after a certain recognized show. I am in a similar boat to you, though - I don’t know as much about the point system other than it means another level and/or qualification for specific shows.
See, these are my concerns - if you cannot earn points at lower levels, especially after a ‘lay up’, it may ‘encourage’ riders to move up quicker than they should or start at a level that is unsafe for their riding or their horse’s competing ability. I know when I broke my ankle and came back to riding, my riding was off after not being on a horse in three months and my leg was weak from lack of use - this could effect my dressage score as will as my confidence and ability to stay with my horse over a more difficult course.
Is this more clear? I know this was off-topic, but this was one of my initial concerns with Laine - that she may have pushed Frodo before he was ready in order to get him into competing points. Maybe they can get points as long as they register for Open classes? That way they are competing only against other people in their same situation. Kind of separate them from the group but allow them into the shows you have to qualify for and reestablish the qualification for higher levels.
bambam - just saw your post. Maybe that was it, I confused or an author originally confused Darren’s horse with another horse at the same event.
I thinnk maybe you’re misunderstanding “points.” If I understand correctly, for example, a HORSE who has competed at, say, the ADVANCED level in 2008 receives a certain number of points for each of his Advanced placings (i.e. 1st-6th). All that does is give him points toward the ADVANCED HORSE OF THE YEAR award. Nothing else. If he does more than 2 Advanced events in 2008, he will only be eligible to get an end of the year award at the ADVANCED Level, even if he also did three Intermediate events. That’s all points mean.
A RIDER can get points at multiple levels with different horses. For example, I could ride the ADVANCED Horse of the Year, the INTERMEDIATE Reserve Horse of the Year, and the PRELIM 3rd place. I could also be RIDER OF THE YEAR in all of those divisions. (In a parallel universe, of course!)
There’s nothing to stop me riding my (hypothetical) Advanced horse at Red Hills and the Fork, at Advanced, and winning both events, and then dropping down to Intermediate to to go to Fair Hill–but my horse will only be eligible for a year end award at Advanced.
Qualifications are totally different, and there is NOTHING to stop me from running my hypothetical Advanced horse at ANY level below Advanced. I wouldn’t be eligible to run him in a Novice HORSE division–since that is designed for horses that have never run above Novice. But I could absolutely run him in an OPEN Novice division.
I’m not sure why the link didn’t work but to get that you go to useventing.com, on the top there is a tab with competitions, then click horse qualification search (under resources), then you can type in Frodo Baggins.
The Quiet Man broke his shoulder, and it was worse than expected… that is why he was euthanized. Frodo landed on his head and I think broke his skull along with lung damage. Darren’s horse flipped, and was uninjured… nothing to do with heart attacks or anything internal.
Totally unrelated to the conversation
but lighter for sure!~
OK I have all the Lord of the Rings DVD’s HEs in the first one??
Whos riding him??
Would love to know the history? How does a horse that was a movie horse end up an eventer?? I guess you have to have connections huh!
Curious, I am sure this is stated somewhere but what was his breeding?
Hey, Sannois, I think he was the lead Black Rider’s horse in the first movie…
As for points, the useventing site is down at the moment. I wish I’d paid better attention to this but…
I think at the lower levels, the incentives we have are qualifying for and competing at the Area Champs and the AECs. Those are both great goals to work for. We can certainly tweak the incentives for staying at a level, but eventers are pretty leary of the “point chasing” mentality and may not get on board with an idea like that.
I think the cleanest way to address the safety issue on this score is to beef up the qualifications needed to go above Novice. That would start with creating qualifications for going Training, which do not exist, and then extend to significantly stiffer qualifications from there on up. The points system I think relates to where you place and how many starters were in your division. As someone who once drove home with a ribbon after 2 stops and lots of time faults (one very mean fence wiped out the better part of the amateur division – the fact that I finished at all put me in the ribbons), I really think this is NOT the way to go to determine whether someone is safe and skilled enough to move up.
It’s got to be on some base performance, minimum d score, max jumping penalties.
We have this for P and above but IMO it needs to be overhauled.
As for what motivated Laine and whether she was pushing too hard or too fast, I will not speculate. I do know she had aspirations for an Olympic spot this year, since she had said that publicly several times. Given the veterans on the current Short List this seems a bit of a reach but it is a big leap from expressing a goal/dream to letting it drown out common sense, and I for one don’t think I am qualifed to say whether that’s what happened here.
unprepared?
appears per from her website that, she and Frodo completed and placed at all the winter horse trials in Florida, :yes:s well as louden spring ; those four would definitely be considered adequate preparation for Rolex:yes:
hdo wtil hav ehtis standard?; if not, what…?
Ajierene, back in the 70ies when eventing was experiencing a surge after the WM at Burglhley; It was said that an experienced foxhunter should be able to take a hunt horse, and be able to complete a horse trial ata specified revel; unfortunately,i don’t remember which level,probably training;Denny, do you recal lHow ?How much specialized traing is necessary?
USEA Dashboard says he was imported in late August of 2002.
Ajierene, I say this with all due respect, but do you have any idea at all how this sport works regarding levels and eligibility? From what you are stating, it would appear you do not, and the USEA rule book would be a great place to start.
Also, as far as taking a green horse training level… when I started eventing, they had just added novice as a recognized division. In the UK/Australia/etc, eventing starts at the equivalent of our training level. 3’3 is really just not that big.
