Lamanitic changes and chronic abscesses...whose been down this road?

[Scribbler]

Those feet in the more recently posted photos are a mess, totally unbalanced. That isn’t conformation problems. That’s years of bad trims.

I’ve heard farriers cautiously suggest that a horse with a really good tight trim probably won’t founder even if it has a laminitc episode. Whereas a horse with long toes and heels run forward are just waiting to founder. Of course the look of this foot is also typical of a foot that has foundered.

You may find your best help in educated barefoot trimmers, but they are relatively rare compared to self taught or internet taught newby trimmers.

[walkinthewalk]

Regarding Highly recommended farrier’s: It was one of THOSE who took too much heel on the third trim, when my IR horse foundered in 2012, and the result was TORN tendons. My lameness vet was livid when he did the ultrasounds.

And this loser farrier STILL gets published in the American Farrier’s Journal.

Fast Forward to Fall of 2016 (after a few farrier failures that were good at trimming my healthy horses but didn’t know zip about foundered hooves), when my current farrier came on board, whom I found by pure dumb luck on newhorse.com in my state’s section…

She has never received the the credit SHE deserves — never, as I am sure being female is the operative. She interned a year under Ric Redden; Google him if you’re not familiar with him.

Not only is she aces above the "150 farrier’s-turned-car-salemen in my area, she has great gut instinct and cares about the horse.

These types of farrier’s are more scarce than hens teeth, so I say good luck to the OP in your farrier search and by all means, ditch the vet. My reply to your vet that she doesn’t “think” your horse needs tested for cushings and IR would have been “well ----- there you go thinking again.”

[AMackechnie]

@relocatedTXjumpr

I asked the vet about re-taking the BW for custhings and IR and was told she doesn’t think that’s the problem…no increased water intake, urination, coat growth is “fine”, etc.

I’ve had two horses show no outward symptoms of IR and be positive for it. I would still recommend the test to be sure.

[Marla_100]

From your most recent pictures here’s what I see:

1. heel positions are still way too forward. You need to find a good trimmer who understand the proper angle for heels.

2. Bars have been untrimmed and allowed to migrate over soles. This can cause soreness and lack of hoof mechanism.

3)Both #1 and #2 are causing excess pressure on toe area and therefore bruising.

4. First pic show some thrushy/infection around frog and heel pocket. thrush can cause soreness- very painful.
   Thrush may be cause by improper hoof balance, lack of mechanism- see #1 and #2

5. Overall it seems you need a good barefoot trimmer. Properly balancing this foot should correct most of your
   current problems.

6. For now I’d get some good hoof boots w/ interior pads ie Softride.

7. Treat for thrush daily on all hooves and keep horse in clean, dry area, with as much turnout as possible.

I don’t believe you need shoes to correct these hooves but you do need a trimmer who understands proper balance.

[MustangSavvy]

I would seriously consider getting a second opinion from another vet and additional bloodwork. PPID and IR don’t like to follow the textbook. They do whatever they want. Horses with PPID are immune compromised (strangles) and are prone to laminitis/hoof abscesses. There is additional bloodwork that can be run if the ACTH comes back within normal limits.

[relocatedTXjumpr]

New vet comes Friday, so there’s step 1. I got the ACTH level back from the test he had run in March and it was 12.8 pg/ml at that time.

[EmilyM]

i hope you get this sorted out, and please let us know the changes and outcome so that we can all keep learning. Good luck!

[Scribbler]

I wouldn’t be considering euthanizing this horse because there is so much room for improvement on those trims. I would want to get good balanced trims which might take several trim cycles to see an improvement. Then see where he’s at. You aren’t at the end of possible solutions. You havent even started.

This is meant to be encouraging, not critical or guilt inducing!

[eruss]

@walkinthewalk

Regarding Highly recommended farrier’s: It was one of THOSE who took too much heel on the third trim, when my IR horse foundered in 2012, and the result was TORN tendons. My lameness vet was livid when he did the ultrasounds.

And this loser farrier STILL gets published in the American Farrier’s Journal.

Not to get off track on the thread…

I tend to agree with you on highly recommended Farriers. People like to work with others who they get along with or goes along with their point of view. I’m sure that’s in every profession.

You can really cripple a foundered horse by taking too much heel but to say the tendon tore from it is a serious stretch.

Fast Forward to Fall of 2016 (after a few farrier failures that were good at trimming my healthy horses but didn’t know zip about foundered hooves), when my current farrier came on board, whom I found by pure dumb luck on newhorse.com in my state’s section…

She has never received the the credit SHE deserves — never, as I am sure being female is the operative. She interned a year under Ric Redden; Google him if you’re not familiar with him.

Not only is she aces above the "150 farrier’s-turned-car-salemen in my area, she has great gut instinct and cares about the horse.

There’s certainly a bit of a “club” element to this industry. Again, people like to hang out with others with the same thoughts.

If she wanted some kind of “credit” there’s plenty of certifications around. I think anybody can submit an article to the Journal. I think if you do the AFA TE exam you’re expected to give a presentation at the AFA Convention (I could be wrong on that).

[eruss]

@relocatedTXjumpr

New vet comes Friday, so there’s step 1. I got the ACTH level back from the test he had run in March and it was 12.8 pg/ml at that time.

Nice!

Just to help you out a bit so you don’t waste your money…

As far as the feet go if you get an xray…

Ask the vet to measure the vertical depth (distance between ground and coffin bone).

See if they are able to mark on the foot, via x-ray, where the nondistorted toe would be without all the dishing.

Whatever you decide to do to the feet, shoes / boots whatever, make sure the device is at the nondistorted line or a bit behind it and that the coffin bone is away from the ground. Then magical things like abcesses go away.

[relocatedTXjumpr]

@eruss

Nice!

Just to help you out a bit so you don’t waste your money…

As far as the feet go if you get an xray…

Ask the vet to measure the vertical depth (distance between ground and coffin bone).

See if they are able to mark on the foot, via x-ray, where the nondistorted toe would be without all the dishing.

Whatever you decide to do to the feet, shoes / boots whatever, make sure the device is at the nondistorted line or a bit behind it and that the coffin bone is away from the ground. Then magical things like abcesses go away.

Thanks…I plan on xraying both fronts again as well as having additional BW pulled.

[Jungle_Monkey]

If you are able, financially and other, I would suggest, ACTH, glucose, insulin, iron (which I think is generally called trace minerals, which will give you copper, zinc, selenium etc), vitamin E, magnesium and thyroid. Check with the clinic in case the one your vet uses classifies differently.

I continue to x-ray more frequently than my vet thinks is necessary, for my piece of mind and to help the farrier.

I also started to feed this. Have a look at Ric Redden’s web page…Feeding 1 oz per day delivers 100 mg of Biotin and 50 mg of DL-Methionine [h=1]NANRIC Extra Strength Biotin 100[/h]

[beau159]

@relocatedTXjumpr

I THINK I’ve uploaded the photos I took Friday. He is 5 weeks post trim, farrier comes Friday I believe.

Oh lordy. I’d tell him not to come. Shoe or no shoe, and whether or not he’s 5-weeks post trim, that a horrible trim job. Start farrier searching again!

I’ve never had a Cushings or IR horse, so I can’t comment on that, but man what crummy luck you have with farrier. His feet look just as horrible as they did from the pictures a year ago. Those crushed heels … oh those crushed heels. That is such a huge no-no anyway, and even worse if your horse has coffin bone rotation/changes.

Seriously – I bet if you spend 30 minutes educating yourself, you could probably pick up a nippers and rasp and do a better job yourself. It just amazes me sometimes what “farriers” out there will do.

Now I am not a farrier and I probably can’t eloquently tell you exactly everything that is wrong with your horse’s trim, but I know enough to tell you that you need to fire your current one.

Keep us posted!!!

[eruss]

@beau159

Seriously – I bet if you spend 30 minutes educating yourself, you could probably pick up a nippers and rasp and do a better job yourself. It just amazes me sometimes what “farriers” out there will do.

I’m all for horse owners doing whatever they want with their horse. There are some things going on with this horse that might cause a good Farrier some issues. Horse Owner spending 30 mins to learn to trim might not be the best advice for this one.

[JBD]

Looking at the white line area, there looks to be no connection on most of the hoof. That in itself could be setting him up for abscessing. I use Cleantrax soak and have had good luck with it. Crossing my fingers for you that the new vet has some great ideas.

[relocatedTXjumpr]

I actually did trim him myself once or twice while he was in the quarantine barn because the BO was not comfortable with people going in and messing with the sick horses. The barefoot picture in post 39 is after I trimmed him…which was really just me using the rasp. I am not comfortable using the nippers or the knife.

If, at any point either the vet or the farrier (any of them I have used, even the ones at the clinic) would have said, its the trim, he needs a specific trim/shoe/prosthetic/whatever and this is what it should be/looklike/etc I would have made sure it was being done. So, I feel I have failed him on that front…I took the words “its his conformation” at face value instead of thinking it was something we could change.

He is on TC Senior and has been for years, which I asked about regarding his feed when he started dropping weight and was told that was a good feed for him. He did get soaked hay when he had strangles, but I have not done that since then.

He does not like to be out long and he’s pretty antisocial…he prefers to be in his room napping and eating and going out a few hours a day to mow the grass around the farm or make ugly faces at the other horses. He has one older buddy but other than that, he really could care less about being out and about. They call him Princess Grouch…and the name fits.

[Scribbler]

It’s unfortunate but true that virtually every horse owner with a horse who has hoof problems needs to go on a fast track learning curve about hooves, hoof balance, hoof care. Fortunately there are very good resources online, and much of the best information is under the heading of barefoot, and useful even if you choose to have shoes.

In general, owners that let vets and farriers take the lead on solving complex hoof issues end up with more problems.

[Hilary]

I did have a horse who when he turned 19, began abscessing kind of chronically. He was a TB and had what one farrier described “Decent feet for at TB”.

I ended up putting him down because what was happening was a variation of founder/laminitis in that his laminae were beginning to pull away from the hoof wall, putting too much strain on the hoof capsule, causing what vet and farrier said was “internal bruising” which would then get infected and abscess. That inflammation caused further issue with the laminae and he cycled like that and we were unable to get it to stop.

It was very painful for him and given his other infirmities (unridable and retired) and lack of improvement over the summer I opted to euthanize him. I am sorry I did not have a good ending for you, but your first post sounded a lot like this situation.

Hope yours has a better ending.

[relocatedTXjumpr]

@Hilary

I did have a horse who when he turned 19, began abscessing kind of chronically. He was a TB and had what one farrier described “Decent feet for at TB”.

I ended up putting him down because what was happening was a variation of founder/laminitis in that his laminae were beginning to pull away from the hoof wall, putting too much strain on the hoof capsule, causing what vet and farrier said was “internal bruising” which would then get infected and abscess. That inflammation caused further issue with the laminae and he cycled like that and we were unable to get it to stop.

It was very painful for him and given his other infirmities (unridable and retired) and lack of improvement over the summer I opted to euthanize him. I am sorry I did not have a good ending for you, but your first post sounded a lot like this situation.

Hope yours has a better ending.

Was this seen by xrays?

It has been a never ending cycle. He does not have a job and his weight has begun to also be a struggle. When he walks, I have had more than one person tell me he looks neurological behind, vet has said its because of how bad his feet hurt. I guess Ill find out more Friday.

[Jungle_Monkey]

Is he overall a more sensitive type horse?

Does he react poorly to vaccines etc? My vet and I agreed that my horse that foundered will never get vaccinated again given the possible risks of adverse reaction after the founder. He was already very reactive to vaccines and I’d read a lot about horses that had recovered from complicated laminitis cases only to vaccinated the next season and they founder again and had to be euthanized. Not worth that risk given my horses current living situation.

I can’t remember if you said his insulin levels were higher/high? Does he have a particularly dirty sheath?

If you don’t figure out why, you’ll never stop the cycle…my vet was fantastic but I did A LOT of research and bounced a lot of “alternative” type ideas/treatments off him. We ended up trying a limb perfusion of Laminil and the cream.