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Lasix also one of the drugs that has no place in the game

Racing
#21

[QUOTE=Galileo1998;3125336]
No, it’s not. I would suspect though that they generally don’t go looking for an something that isn’t causing a problem in order to put their horses on drugs they don’t need and can’t legally use though. :yes:

Nobody has yet been able to explain to me why we NEED Lasix over here, when every other racing country in the world seems to manage just fine without it, AND have lower breakdown rates while maintaining a higher average of yearly and lifetime starts?

At Lingfield in England today there are seven races on the card, ranging in distance from 5 furlongs to 1 1/2 miles. There are 6 two year olds in the five furlong race, two races with 8 entries, two with 9 entries, one with 11 and one with 14. The horses range in age from 2 to 8, and there are entries with 20+, 30+, 40+, 50+, 60+ and even 70+ lifetime starts, all done without drugs, and all sound enough to be racing today without drugs. These may not be the superstars of the racehorse world, but they are out there doing the job they were bred to do and providing entertainment for the fans and betting public.[/QUOTE]

And you’re trying to attribute the longevity to NOT using lasix?? I think that’s a BIT OFF. I don’t think you can make such a conclusion whatsoever. You also have to look at the breeding, the footing, and everything else. You can’t just blame it on one element. Breakdowns don’t happen in the US more because we use Lasix. That is such a bogus conclusion.

I think there are many other contributing factors. Breeding may be one of them??

#22

No, not all all. Just pointing out a bunch of enjoyable to watch racing taking place today, being done by horses that have been doing it for years and all without the use of a drug that some people feel is absolutely necessary over here. I’m just trying to get someone to explain to my how it is that the rest of the racing world seems to get along just fine without it :slight_smile:

#23

[QUOTE=Galileo1998;3125622]
No, not all all. Just pointing out a bunch of enjoyable to watch racing taking place today, being done by horses that have been doing it for years and all without the use of a drug that some people feel is absolutely necessary over here. I’m just trying to get someone to explain to my how it is that the rest of the racing world seems to get along just fine without it :)[/QUOTE]

Again, not entirely sure how it works in TBs. But, here’s what I would tend to think:

STBs in Europe are going slower than those here. Generally longer distances and slower. THis may contribute to the bleeding factor here, due to the speeds horses are going.
Also, like I had mentioned before…In Europe, if they bleed enough to hinder their performance significantly, they don’t race. Here, if they bleed, you can put them on Lasix and get a successful career out of an otherwise “doomed” (racing-wise) horse. I am not sure where the problem in this is. IME, if a horse is on the right dosage of Lasix for their bleeding situation, it can eradicate the problem. Also IME Lasix is not at all related to longevity of racing. At all.

It is interesting to note, however: Mr Muscleman (big name in older-trotter ranks) went to the Elitlopp in Sweden, I believe last year, where he had to race without Lasix and was just fine. I think Lasix here, as I said, is easy to get on and used as a precautionary measure in cases. I don’t know that I really have a problem with that either.

I don’t even know how you’d come up with this info, but it would be neat to see the proportion of “bleeders” in other countries and how many are never able to race b/c of this. Do horses imported from other countries frequently end up on Lasix here?

#24

[QUOTE=Galileo1998;3125622]
No, not all all. Just pointing out a bunch of enjoyable to watch racing taking place today, being done by horses that have been doing it for years and all without the use of a drug that some people feel is absolutely necessary over here. I’m just trying to get someone to explain to my how it is that the rest of the racing world seems to get along just fine without it :)[/QUOTE]

Well you didn’t answer my first question, so allow me to try another–What is the time frame for the pre-race drawing of horses in the UK?

Allow me to add a third query–Do any trainers in the UK use a product called Bleed-X?

#25

Well, I didn’t answer your first question about the scopes because it seems an impossible question to answer unless I had been in every trainers yard in the UK and questioned them about their practices, which I haven’t…but in my experiences while they aren’t uncommon, trainers also don’t go looking for something that isn’t causing an issue.

Second question - do you mean declaration times?

Third question - again, how would I possibly know what every trainer in the UK is doing and/or using.

Now can anyone please answer my question? HOW is it that the rest of the world manages to run a thriving racing industry without the use of Lasix but you all seem to think it’s absolutely necessary here?

#26

[QUOTE=Galileo1998;3127541]
Well, I didn’t answer your first question about the scopes because it seems an impossible question to answer unless I had been in every trainers yard in the UK and questioned them about their practices, which I haven’t…but in my experiences while they aren’t uncommon, trainers also don’t go looking for something that isn’t causing an issue.

Second question - do you mean declaration times?

Third question - again, how would I possibly know what every trainer in the UK is doing and/or using.

Now can anyone please answer my question? HOW is it that the rest of the world manages to run a thriving racing industry without the use of Lasix but you all seem to think it’s absolutely necessary here?[/QUOTE]

Forgive me for misunderstanding a previous post, but after reading your claim of having worked in UK racing for five years, I figured you may have some knowledge of such issues. After all, you claimed that bleeding episodes in the UK are not that common.

FYI, horses can bleed without the presence of a two-nostril gusher and I find the logic of “if I don’t look for bleeding in the lungs, then I guess it didn’t happen” to be quite troubling. In investigatiing an unexplained subpar performance on this side of the ocean, the lungs are usually one of the first areas to be investigated.

The second question refers to “drawing,” which is the withholding of water prior to a race or workout. How many hours ahead of the exercise are horses “drawn” in the UK, especially without the use of any anti-bleeding medication?

I asked about Bleed-X since we employ one of Mark Prescott’s former exercise riders. I’ve queried her about this topic and I’m just trying to compare your version versus hers.

#27

I can tell you that I spent the better part of two of those years on racecourses every day and that it was uncommon to see a bleeder.

You’re asking me questions that are trainer and horse dependant, not sure how you think I could answer for the practices and proceedures for every trainer in the UK :slight_smile:

As far as what SIR Mark Prescott uses in his yard, I have no idea, I’ve never been to Heath House, and if you know him at all, I’m sure you’ll understand why I never felt the inclination to wander up to him and ask. :lol: I will say he did a hell of a job with Alborada in 1999, and his training of Fall in Line to win six races in two weeks was pretty darn impressive as well :yes:

Now, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my question?

#28

Racing is not my area… yet… but while in school I had to do a term paper on whatever topic I chose. Lasix and it’s use and the controversy was my choice, and I have learned a little bit about the drug. I do firmly believe that in TB racing the drug is badly abused. While it is proven that it is a very theraputic drug for EIPH, it is also on the line of a performance enhancer. Lasix is furosemide, which is above all a diuretic, basically causes you to excrete urine and excess water, at a higher rate than normal. Research does show that horses who run on Lasix usually have better performance times than horses that do not, as well as performances of horses not on the drug got better once on it. I don’t personally consider it a performance enhancer, because it is common sense, you are going to run faster if you aren’t carrying water weight. In standardbred racing they allow the use of Lasix, but the bleeding MUST be confirmed by a vet in order to use it.
I was just at the track today to enjoy the races, and about 95% of the horses running today were on Lasix. Now you can’t tell me that all of these horses suffer so badly from EIPH that they could not run without it. If that truely is the case, shouldn’t we be watching our breeding programs and breeding better horses who are built to do their jobs without needing drugs to get by? How well is our sport doing if we have to medicate all of the participants? I don’t know if it is the horses, or trainers, or breeders, but someone should do something or the entire sport will suffer! Sooner or later, the drug is going to be banned, there is too much controversy and research is showing it to be more of a performance enhancer by the day… shouldn’t we be weaning horses off of it rather than putting everyone on it just in case?
Not trying to start a train wreck here, just sharing what I learned doing my research!

#29

Ill informed posts like these are why I stayed away from COTH for over a year. If you dont have personal knowledge, all you are doing is guessing, speculating, or ASS-U-ME-ing. Reading something in a book gives you just the author’s opinion (which may be severely slanted like Lora’s PETA articles). Just because you dont see a horse bleed out the nose it doesnt mean it didnt bleed. As any vet will tell you, 80% of racehorses bleed to some extent worldwide. It is the severity of the bleeding which affects performance.

Our vet uses a scale of 1-5 when he scopes a horse (did you know that 75% of bleeders do NOT show any visible external signs other than a cough?). Five is bleeding out the nose that is also confirmed to have originated in the lungs - bleeding out the nose can also be caused by banging the head in the gate or on the lead pony’s saddle horn. The very vascular sinus cavities can pop a blood vessel/capillary and cause a bit of blood out the nose so it is essential to differentiate between EIPH and a simple nosebleed. A 1 is a visible amount of blood, enough to be considered consequential.

There are many bleeder meds which can be given in addition to or in lieu of lasix. Many horses in other countries race on these kind of (often untraceable “natural”) preparations - first to mind are the chinese herbs. My personal knowledge about racing in other countries (actually seeing the vet bill on some racehorses in training for a friend that we compared to our average vet bills) only covers australia but I have talked extensively with trainers in England as well, and they have bleeder “meds” that don’t show.

So dont for one second think that “other countries don’t use lasix so their horses arent bleeding, therefore America is just doping up our racehorses because racehorse trainers are essential evil greedy doping ba$tards.”

I believe the two EVENT horses that died a couple weeks ago at the Red Hills event from EIPH would still be alive if lasix had been allowed in that show venue. What a shame.

OK, rant over. Resume your regularly scheduled program. :cool:

#30

[QUOTE=Galileo1998;3127912]
I can tell you that I spent the better part of two of those years on racecourses every day and that it was uncommon to see a bleeder.

You’re asking me questions that are trainer and horse dependant, not sure how you think I could answer for the practices and proceedures for every trainer in the UK :slight_smile:

As far as what SIR Mark Prescott uses in his yard, I have no idea, I’ve never been to Heath House, and if you know him at all, I’m sure you’ll understand why I never felt the inclination to wander up to him and ask. :lol: I will say he did a hell of a job with Alborada in 1999, and his training of Fall in Line to win six races in two weeks was pretty darn impressive as well :yes:

Now, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer my question?[/QUOTE]

I’m not asking you to answer for every trainer in the UK. You made an assertion, based on your supposed “work” in the UK racing industry that bleeding was not a problem. As Jessi P stated, bleeding episodes vary in severity and just because ‘you’ didn’t see a horse bleed from its nostrils doesn’t mean it didn’t bleed. Even a minute amount of blood in the lungs can be deadly. I’m just trying to reconcile what you say with what my co-worker observed, which is about completely opposite from your assertions.

To answer your question, lasix is an ethical and practical way to deal with an inherent physical problem with performance horses. We recognize that horses bleed and don’t for one instant believe that if we don’t look for it, then it doesn’t happen. You say it’s not a problem, I have someone who had her hands on horses every day in a bonafide racing yard who said it was. That’s why I asked how often are horses scoped, or how long are horses drawn. Is drawing a horse for 10, 12, or even 24 hours more humane than giving 5cc’s of lasix? Is giving lasix less humane than syringing a horse with turpentine and linseed oil, which was a treatment for EIPH about 100 years ago?

Ultimately, if other jurisdictions would rather deal with dead or sick horses due to EIPH, I guess that’s their philosophy and ethic, but I myself would rather try to prevent it, or at least limit the severity of it in the first place.

#31

Yes, that’s it, you’re on to me, I made up the fact that I worked in the UK racing industry. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: So far you’ve accused me of “claiming” to work in the racing industry and now you call it my “supposed work”. I can see that you’re a very rational person to have a discussion with. :yes: :lol:

I have never known of a trainer to withhold water for 24, 12 or even 10 hours before a race. Are you are saying that one of Sir Mark Prescott’s ex stable lasses says that was common practice in his yard? Is so, I’ll be sure to pass that concern on. The BHA takes the welfare of horses very seriously.

#32

Can anyone cite any websites to why lasix works for EIPH??

#33

Just thought I’d add a few more meds that work to control bleeding… I’m sure our European friends are on to these also…

Other medicines used to prevent bleeding are Aminocaproic acid (Amicar), conjugated estrogens, Tranexamic acid, and lastly, Carbazochrome. Carbazochrome is used for the systemic control of capillary bleeding associated with increased capillary permeability. In the form Carbazochrome Salicylate, it is known as Kentucky Red. Cant forget good old Clotal either.

Lasix is a diuretic-
A diuretic reduces blood pressure by reducing the volume of water retained by the body. Lower water volume=lower blood pressure. There is no actual cure for EIPH but Lasix does seem to help alleviate it, due to reducing the pressure in the blood vessels in the lung.

#34

Here are a few links I just found with information on the use of Lasix and other treatments…

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/furosa.htm

http://www.centurion-systems.co.uk/respiratory4.htm

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs10688/$FILE/lasix.pdf

After skimming through these pages, they all pretty much take the same stand that Lasix is a performance enhancer, but there are other sites out there that take different stands, but I dont have enough time right now to find more!

#35

I’d say I’m very rational. You made a broad statement based on your experience in the UK racing industry, but when I pressed you for specifics about the topic, all I received was alot of “I don’t know.” Your avoidance just makes me wonder about the nature of your experience, that’s all.

#36

[QUOTE=CTDarkhorse045;3128457]
Here are a few links I just found with information on the use of Lasix and other treatments…

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/furosa.htm

http://www.centurion-systems.co.uk/respiratory4.htm

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs10688/$FILE/lasix.pdf

After skimming through these pages, they all pretty much take the same stand that Lasix is a performance enhancer, but there are other sites out there that take different stands, but I dont have enough time right now to find more![/QUOTE]

Well, obviously a bleeder is going to put in a better performance if the Lasix stops them from bleeding! :winkgrin:

#37

In The Sun

The big difference of opinions on Lasix is the difference between those who make their living in racing and those who just have an opinion. It is necessary to be “in the game” to really offer a totally educated opinion.

#38

Second the motion!

#39

[QUOTE=Galileo1998;3127541]

Now can anyone please answer my question? HOW is it that the rest of the world manages to run a thriving racing industry without the use of Lasix but you all seem to think it’s absolutely necessary here?[/QUOTE]

Well, I know trainers that win at 35% are using EPO. Also, if you are IN the business, you know someone who knows someone and word spreads pretty quick about who’s using what.

#40

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;3128392]
Just thought I’d add a few more meds that work to control bleeding… I’m sure our European friends are on to these also…

Other medicines used to prevent bleeding are Aminocaproic acid (Amicar), conjugated estrogens, Tranexamic acid, and lastly, Carbazochrome. Carbazochrome is used for the systemic control of capillary bleeding associated with increased capillary permeability. In the form Carbazochrome Salicylate, it is known as Kentucky Red. Cant forget good old Clotal either.

Lasix is a diuretic-
A diuretic reduces blood pressure by reducing the volume of water retained by the body. Lower water volume=lower blood pressure. There is no actual cure for EIPH but Lasix does seem to help alleviate it, due to reducing the pressure in the blood vessels in the lung.[/QUOTE]

New Bolton just did a study on Amicar and the results showed that it does absolutely nothing to stop bleeding…I only say this because I never saw it work and felt it was truly a way for vets to make a quick $15.

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